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I'm just jumping into this now but you're not really listening to what the parent is saying. You seem to be acknowledging their point but then ignoring what the

I'm just jumping into this now but you're not really listening to what the parent is saying. You seem to be acknowledging their point but then ignoring what they're saying. No one is talking about what should happen. They're saying that, as you've confirmed, m.* is a separate resource from en.* because they exist as 2 separate pages on wikipedia.org. On the en.* page, people on mobile are incorrectly redirected to m.* which it seems that everyone agrees shouldn't be the behavior. The opposite, m.* redirecting people on desktop, doesn't occur. That means that your statement that "URLs should be for a specific resource" contradicts your other statement that "sharing that URL ought [not] to send anyone to the mobile design". If the mobile page is a separate resource, then sending someone a link to m.* should always load that resource (the mobile version) which seems to the be the opposite of what you're suggesting. Additionally, there seems to be additional confusion because everyone is assuming that the page loaded at m.* is the same page as that loaded on en.* but that doesn't seem to be the case as the page isn't responsive. It's the same text content but the stylesheet and headers are different which, by web standards, is a separate resource.

tshaddox 5y ago
I understand all of that and still disagree with the claim that mobile readers should never share a Wikipedia URL containing on the "m." subdomain. I simply do not agree. They got to that URL probably without every explicitly asking for a mobile-specific page, so they ought to freely share that URL. Moreover, this "mobile" design is in fact more responsive than the "desktop" design, and some people might even prefer to always see the mobile design even when they are on a desktop computer. I think it's outlandish to say that mobile users should never share the URLs they are viewing simply because some (but not all!) desktop users might prefer the desktop design.
- dkonofalski 5y ago
  No one is saying that mobile readers shouldn't ever share a URL on the "m." subdomain (despite them, quite literally, saying that). The criticism is that Wikipedia even has 2 separate resources for the same article and that the default behavior on "m." is to share the mobile resource while that's not the same case for the "en." subdomain (or other language variants). The only thing being said is that it should be consistent or it should be seamless - "en." always takes you to desktop and "m." always takes you to mobile or both should take you to the same page and the page should be responsive to the device you're using at the time. When users are saying "don't share the 'm.' page", they're only saying that because it doesn't exhibit the behavior of the "standard" page (which I'm only calling "standard" because that's how it was stated despite the fact that I don't agree that's a proper name for it).
  - tshaddox 5y ago
    I agree with criticism of Wikipedia’s behavior. I disagree that ordinary visitors to the website should need to or indeed should manually manipulate the URL of the page they’re on in order to share it with someone else. If you’re sharing the URL directly with a specific person who you know feels strongly about which URL they received, then sure, do it to be nice. But I disagree with prescribing that one URL should be the default (when it’s not even clear which one it should be!) and complaining about other people not respecting your preferred default URL.
    - dkonofalski 5y ago
      > I disagree that ordinary visitors to the website should need to or indeed should manually manipulate the URL of the page they’re on in order to share it with someone else. Everyone agrees with you on this point. You shouldn't need to manually manipulate anything but, because Wikipedia keeps a desktop resource and a mobile resource, there is a distinction and so you do need to manually manipulate it if you're sending a link from mobile to someone else and don't know their device. That doesn't change the fact that sending a mobile URL should always show the mobile page because that is, in fact, a unique resource and, therefore, has a unique URL.
      - tshaddox 5y ago
        > because Wikipedia keeps a desktop resource and a mobile resource, there is a distinction and so you do need to manually manipulate it if you're sending a link from mobile to someone else and don't know their device. As I've explained, even knowing their device is not sufficient, because someone on a desktop device may prefer the "mobile" design (which is responsive) or someone on a mobile device may prefer the desktop design (because it apparently contains more features). And if you're sharing the link with multiple people or publicly, you obviously can't accommodate mutually exclusive preferences.
        dkonofalski 5y ago
        That wasn't my point, though. My point is that the mobile version and the desktop version are explicitly different resources. They do not load the same page. Therefore, they should have separate URLs. The very first parent comment stated that sending the "m." URL should load the mobile version of the page regardless of the device being used and they're correct. The fact that people are redirected there from the main URL is the problem, not the fact that they're sending the link to the mobile version since that's the "correct" behavior according to URL standards.
jfrunyon 5y ago
en.m. is NOT a seperate resource from en.. It is the SAME resource because it has the SAME content and because editing the content on EITHER changes the content on the other. It is a different PRESENTATION of the content, which should be served at the same URL. This is WHY HTTP has such headers as Vary and Accept. If en.m. is asking for the mobile version, then en. is asking for the desktop version, yes? So why does en. redirect to en.m. on mobile?
- thaumasiotes 5y ago
  So that mobile users following existing wikipedia links can view mobile pages instead. It reflects the fact that standard pages existed before mobile pages did.
- dkonofalski 5y ago
  That's not true. There are functional differences between the en.m and the en. versions.
  - jfrunyon 5y ago
    Okay, and? Again, they both display the same content, and edits made to either one affect the other. I don't know why you think it's relevant that there are (supposedly) "functional differences", sockpuppet.
    - dkonofalski 5y ago
      Sockpuppet? And who exactly would I be sockpuppeting for? Big Wiki? It's relevant that there are functional differences because those are not presentational differences. HTML is for content, CSS is for presentation. If the HTML is different, then it's a different resource and, therefore, gets a different resource locator (URL).

tshaddox 5y ago

I understand all of that and still disagree with the claim that mobile readers should never share a Wikipedia URL containing on the "m." subdomain. I simply do not agree. They got to that URL probably without every explicitly asking for a mobile-specific page, so they ought to freely share that URL. Moreover, this "mobile" design is in fact more responsive than the "desktop" design, and some people might even prefer to always see the mobile design even when they are on a desktop computer. I think it's outlandish to say that mobile users should never share the URLs they are viewing simply because some (but not all!) desktop users might prefer the desktop design.

dkonofalski 5y ago
No one is saying that mobile readers shouldn't ever share a URL on the "m." subdomain (despite them, quite literally, saying that). The criticism is that Wikipedia even has 2 separate resources for the same article and that the default behavior on "m." is to share the mobile resource while that's not the same case for the "en." subdomain (or other language variants). The only thing being said is that it should be consistent or it should be seamless - "en." always takes you to desktop and "m." always takes you to mobile or both should take you to the same page and the page should be responsive to the device you're using at the time. When users are saying "don't share the 'm.' page", they're only saying that because it doesn't exhibit the behavior of the "standard" page (which I'm only calling "standard" because that's how it was stated despite the fact that I don't agree that's a proper name for it).
- tshaddox 5y ago
  I agree with criticism of Wikipedia’s behavior. I disagree that ordinary visitors to the website should need to or indeed should manually manipulate the URL of the page they’re on in order to share it with someone else. If you’re sharing the URL directly with a specific person who you know feels strongly about which URL they received, then sure, do it to be nice. But I disagree with prescribing that one URL should be the default (when it’s not even clear which one it should be!) and complaining about other people not respecting your preferred default URL.
  - dkonofalski 5y ago
    > I disagree that ordinary visitors to the website should need to or indeed should manually manipulate the URL of the page they’re on in order to share it with someone else. Everyone agrees with you on this point. You shouldn't need to manually manipulate anything but, because Wikipedia keeps a desktop resource and a mobile resource, there is a distinction and so you do need to manually manipulate it if you're sending a link from mobile to someone else and don't know their device. That doesn't change the fact that sending a mobile URL should always show the mobile page because that is, in fact, a unique resource and, therefore, has a unique URL.
    - tshaddox 5y ago
      > because Wikipedia keeps a desktop resource and a mobile resource, there is a distinction and so you do need to manually manipulate it if you're sending a link from mobile to someone else and don't know their device. As I've explained, even knowing their device is not sufficient, because someone on a desktop device may prefer the "mobile" design (which is responsive) or someone on a mobile device may prefer the desktop design (because it apparently contains more features). And if you're sharing the link with multiple people or publicly, you obviously can't accommodate mutually exclusive preferences.
      - dkonofalski 5y ago
        That wasn't my point, though. My point is that the mobile version and the desktop version are explicitly different resources. They do not load the same page. Therefore, they should have separate URLs. The very first parent comment stated that sending the "m." URL should load the mobile version of the page regardless of the device being used and they're correct. The fact that people are redirected there from the main URL is the problem, not the fact that they're sending the link to the mobile version since that's the "correct" behavior according to URL standards.

jfrunyon 5y ago

en.m. is NOT a seperate resource from en.. It is the SAME resource because it has the SAME content and because editing the content on EITHER changes the content on the other. It is a different PRESENTATION of the content, which should be served at the same URL. This is WHY HTTP has such headers as Vary and Accept. If en.m. is asking for the mobile version, then en. is asking for the desktop version, yes? So why does en. redirect to en.m. on mobile?

thaumasiotes 5y ago
So that mobile users following existing wikipedia links can view mobile pages instead. It reflects the fact that standard pages existed before mobile pages did.
dkonofalski 5y ago
That's not true. There are functional differences between the en.m and the en. versions.
- jfrunyon 5y ago
  Okay, and? Again, they both display the same content, and edits made to either one affect the other. I don't know why you think it's relevant that there are (supposedly) "functional differences", sockpuppet.
  - dkonofalski 5y ago
    Sockpuppet? And who exactly would I be sockpuppeting for? Big Wiki? It's relevant that there are functional differences because those are not presentational differences. HTML is for content, CSS is for presentation. If the HTML is different, then it's a different resource and, therefore, gets a different resource locator (URL).