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I'll take the opposite view here, mostly because I think it's an interesting issue and don't know where I fall on it. If you can't measure the difference, how

by IanCal 5y ago

I'll take the opposite view here, mostly because I think it's an interesting issue and don't know where I fall on it. If you can't measure the difference, how do you know you've helped? Or if you've made it worse? > "If it isn't measurable, how can you make the needed changes? " Doesn't that question sound absurd? No, because you're saying something is needed with no observable difference when it's changed. If you can't in any way measure the difference between action and inaction, isn't that equivalent to saying "my action is indistinguishable from inaction"? If someone said "I've fixed the bug, no tests changed and you won't see a difference in the reported issues but it's fixed" how confident would you be that they've actually fixed it? How do you trust their changes are needed?

ajkjk 5y ago
There's a big difference between something being discernable and something being measurable. For instance -- suppose you join a company and you can tell the culture is messed up from day 1. You go to the CEO and tell them as much. Should they ask: "can you prove it? where's the data?" or should they say: "tell me more, help me understand." .. Obviously the latter. If you can perceive it, it's a valid belief. Obviously it is _somewhat_ subjective, but even subjective things can be true, and from someone with good judgment, they usually are. You probably don't need to go run a survey or something to prove it -- just make a convincing case, in words. Every case is like this one. You can make changes and see that you've had an impact without ever getting distracted by finding a way to put it into numbers, quantification, and measurement.
- IanCal 5y ago
  So you make a change to the culture - did it help? What does help mean here? Happier staff, better retention? > You can make changes and see that you've had an impact Well the obvious counter here is how do you see you've had an impact when the impact is so hard to measure? > You probably don't need to go run a survey or something to prove it -- just make a convincing case, in words. And yet I've seen the huge issue of wordsmiths with nothing to back it up with taking over and ruining teams.
  - ajkjk 5y ago
    This is all hypothetical, but suppose it makes for happier staff. Do you think you can best discern the happiness of the staff by.. sending out a survey? Or maybe you'd be able to tell by the feeling of the room in the cafeteria, or the tone of your conversations, or the enthusiasm they seem to show at their jobs, or the messages they send you?

by IanCal 5y ago

ajkjk 5y ago

There's a big difference between something being discernable and something being measurable. For instance -- suppose you join a company and you can tell the culture is messed up from day 1. You go to the CEO and tell them as much. Should they ask: "can you prove it? where's the data?" or should they say: "tell me more, help me understand." .. Obviously the latter. If you can perceive it, it's a valid belief. Obviously it is _somewhat_ subjective, but even subjective things can be true, and from someone with good judgment, they usually are. You probably don't need to go run a survey or something to prove it -- just make a convincing case, in words. Every case is like this one. You can make changes and see that you've had an impact without ever getting distracted by finding a way to put it into numbers, quantification, and measurement.

IanCal 5y ago
So you make a change to the culture - did it help? What does help mean here? Happier staff, better retention? > You can make changes and see that you've had an impact Well the obvious counter here is how do you see you've had an impact when the impact is so hard to measure? > You probably don't need to go run a survey or something to prove it -- just make a convincing case, in words. And yet I've seen the huge issue of wordsmiths with nothing to back it up with taking over and ruining teams.
- ajkjk 5y ago
  This is all hypothetical, but suppose it makes for happier staff. Do you think you can best discern the happiness of the staff by.. sending out a survey? Or maybe you'd be able to tell by the feeling of the room in the cafeteria, or the tone of your conversations, or the enthusiasm they seem to show at their jobs, or the messages they send you?