6 ms·

So this all sucks, and you're in a rough situation, and I sympathasize, and I'm not trying to tell you not to complain or that it's under your control. I think

So this all sucks, and you're in a rough situation, and I sympathasize, and I'm not trying to tell you not to complain or that it's under your control. I think you wrote that well in a way that is aware of a lot of what's going on and your position. BUT. "where does this leave the majority of this country?" -- well, the majority of the country does not have as crazy a real estate market as Seattle, as far as paying ~$1.5 mil for a dump where you're basically just paying for the land. That is not most of the country. So... have you considered moving elsewhere? Even if you take a salary drop, you can probably wind up ahead overall with cost of living, especially if buying a home is a main goal you have. Of course, you won't get to live in Seattle. Seattle is awfully nice, it's true. But maybe you can afford a nice home and without working 60 hour weeks either. But as far as "where does this leave the majority of this country" -- definitely not in the insane Seattle or San Francisco (or other "hot" cities with tech money) real estate market, is where. Where I live (on the east coast even, but in a disinvested non-top-tier city) you can easily get a perfectly liveable no-repairs-needed if modest-sized ~1300 sq ft townhome for $200K, or easily a nice detached larger home in a "good" neighborhood for $500K. which I almost don't want to talk about, becuase if the tech money comes here, maybe that won't last. But there's plenty of the country that's not on the coasts and is not Austin or Boulder or something, that is like this or even cheaper. (And, as we both know, there are also plenty of people in even these cities who don't make nearly as much as you or I, and have trouble affording a home in them too!)

derekp7 5y ago
To add on to this, point a real estate app (Zillow, etc) to Racine Wisconsin. The east side is fairly nice. Also, look at north-eastern Illinois, starting in a radius about 40 miles or so outside of Chicago. The grate thing about that area is there is a lot of open farm land, and pieces get converted to housing development periodically whenever the market can support it. So that means many areas have 1500 sqft on 1/4 acre homes in the $200K range (or $100k if you want to put some work into fixing it up). And everything is "close enough" to a major city, and there is enough of the city that expands out in the surrounding areas (a number of large employers aren't downtown, although some have been migrating back to the city to attract the employee demographic that prefers the city life).
- honkycat 5y ago
  So sick of seeing this. I grew up in rural Illinois, first 20 years of my life. Also spent 10 years in Chicago proper. 40 miles outside of Chicago is the middle of nowhere. It is not a substitute for living in a city. I do not see the draw in buying a cheap house in a rural community with nothing to do and nothing around it. My family owns a house in a rural community. It is dead weight. Nobody wants to buy it from us. It is not a good place to raise your kids. The schools are under-funded. The people you interact with are bigots and they will teach your kids to be bigots. If your kid is gifted they will sit them in a corner and do NOTHING to address how they are learning more quickly than their peers. They will suffer from under-funded schooling that is just desperately trying to keep the bottom half of the students from spilling out. Kids are heavily influenced by their peers. There are no "garage bands" or art groups or clubs or anything for your kids to participate in. There is school and sports. If you are lucky there will be a marching band. Also, you are assuming this person is a cis hetero white male. There IS sexism in these communities, there IS racism, there IS bigotry. You will not be welcome if you do not fit in. You WILL be confronted, you WILL be harassed.
  - tayo42 5y ago
    Glad to see comments like this, this kind of conversation seems to always be dominated by col calculators.
    - honkycat 5y ago
      It just grinds my gears. It is such a non-solution to the problem. Basically "if you don't like it leave." and it just muddies the water around discussions about affordability of housing. Move away from your friends and family and community to somewhere in the middle of nowhere, make a massive investment, and cross your fingers you find friends in the community! There is no job market to speak of, so good luck when the remote work fad ends[0]! Also pretending these communities are not extremely religious and contain bigotry is dishonest. It is out there. [0]: which is not guaranteed but possible
  - mechanical_bear 5y ago
ricardobayes 5y ago
Looking at this from an outsider's perspective: a couple of years ago this issue was only affecting SF. Then it spread to almost all of California (Oakland at 1.6M yikes much?) Then it spread to Seattle and parts of Texas (Houston, Dallas, Austin). Looking at this progression, I'd be careful of such talk. In a few years there might not be anymore 'sane' to move to. Who knows what the next real estate trend will be, barn doors are already popular, maybe rural Oklahoma will be place to be in 5 years, and farm estates skyrocketing.
- LAC-Tech 5y ago
  This is exactly what has happened in NZ in the past few years. People flee the biggest cities, then those people push out others from the small cities and big towns, then even the little economically depressed towns 60 minutes from jobs are overpriced. In 2021 there is not a single remote corner of this place that's affordable anymore.
- vb6sp6 5y ago
  There are still reasonable homes in Texas. The real problem is that you would have to live in Texas.
  - mechanical_bear 5y ago
    Booo
    - vb6sp6 5y ago
      There are so many things wrong with Texas, it is hard to even know where to start. I would probably start with "kids pledge allegiance to the Texas flag in school" [1] and end with "politicians will call you a freeloader for expecting electricity to be available in the winter" [2] 1. https://www.chron.com/news/houston-texas/article/Why-do-public-school-students-say-the-Texas-1823148.php https://www.chron.com/news/houston-texas/article/Why-do-publ... 2. https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/texas-mayor-resigns-after-telling-freezing-residents-stop-complaining-about-n1258106 https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/texas-mayor-resigns-aft...
mcguire 5y ago
https://www.realtor.com/realestateandhomes-search/Huntsville_AL/type-single-family-home/price-na-500000 https://www.realtor.com/realestateandhomes-search/Huntsville...
manthedudeguy 5y ago
> BUT. "where does this leave the majority of this country?" -- well, the majority of the country does not have as crazy a real estate market as Seattle, as far as paying ~$1.5 mil for a dump where you're basically just paying for the land. That is not most of the country. True - and the problem is less bad in cheaper areas, but it's still bad and getting worse there, too. OP may be able to afford a $300k house in Kansas, but I doubt the average worker in Kansas can.
throwaway6734 5y ago
What's the city?
t-writescode 5y ago
It's not even Seattle. There are still places going for 600k and 800k just fine. I'm not sure what this person is looking for, honestly. Even stretching out just a bit and going to the Mill Creek area for more north, or Lynnwood, or Issaquah and perfectly nice, even new construction are in their claimed price range.
hardwaregeek 5y ago
What's the ethnic breakdown like in these cities? I imagine some places have growing ethnic communities but it is hard to go from diverse enclaves like New York or the Bay Area to a less diverse city. Even going to Seattle was a bit of a shock. The Asian food was not even close to New York's. Of course many Asian and people of color move to less diverse communities. They have my respect, but I'm not sure I want to end up one of a handful of Asians or relegated to a chinatown. Moving to a cheaper city is a valid decision but it's a more complicated value choice as a person of color.
- honkdaddy 5y ago
  This is a perspective immigrants to America seem to have that I’ve never really understood. What’s the point of moving to a new country if the number one thing one to seek out is culture and cuisine which makes them feel like they’re back home? I certainly can’t imagine someone from Texas moving to Japan and wondering where the all American BBQ places are :)
  - bsbjdkjsgc 5y ago
    More diverse = less racist. Generally speaking, of course. If you’re a person of color, it matters. If you’re the only non-white family in the neighborhood, it matters. If your kids are going to stand out in school because of the color of their skin, it matters. If you’re white, then yes, moving to Japan is probably easier (though you might be surprised).
    - robbedpeter 5y ago
      An observation, and honest question: aside from a few well known stereotypically racist areas, to my knowledge, most of the country is fine. You might run into ignorance, or be subjected to the the curiosity of others because of novelty when moving to a mostly white community, but the distribution happened because of communities and families emigrating en masse, so you get Irish towns and Polish towns and Italian places, etc. They become more diverse over time but they're not white for any reason except genetic happenstance. By and large, they don't care about race. My question is this: doesn't it matter more to engage those communities with the same level of willingness to live among them as to deliberately pick already diverse areas, or an area that matches your own genetic happenstance? If you don't have specific friends and family you're relocating for, then I'd say it's probably better to minimize the impact of any sort of decisions based on race or ethnic diversity. I think it's best to find good people and participate in your adopted community. And with that in mind, if you can work remotely, there's a vast array of affordable housing and land and communities of good people out there.
ctoth 5y ago
This seems actually to not be accurate: Top Housing Markets of 2022: Think Boise, Not New York City [0] [0]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29475091 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29475091

derekp7 5y ago

To add on to this, point a real estate app (Zillow, etc) to Racine Wisconsin. The east side is fairly nice. Also, look at north-eastern Illinois, starting in a radius about 40 miles or so outside of Chicago. The grate thing about that area is there is a lot of open farm land, and pieces get converted to housing development periodically whenever the market can support it. So that means many areas have 1500 sqft on 1/4 acre homes in the $200K range (or $100k if you want to put some work into fixing it up). And everything is "close enough" to a major city, and there is enough of the city that expands out in the surrounding areas (a number of large employers aren't downtown, although some have been migrating back to the city to attract the employee demographic that prefers the city life).

honkycat 5y ago
So sick of seeing this. I grew up in rural Illinois, first 20 years of my life. Also spent 10 years in Chicago proper. 40 miles outside of Chicago is the middle of nowhere. It is not a substitute for living in a city. I do not see the draw in buying a cheap house in a rural community with nothing to do and nothing around it. My family owns a house in a rural community. It is dead weight. Nobody wants to buy it from us. It is not a good place to raise your kids. The schools are under-funded. The people you interact with are bigots and they will teach your kids to be bigots. If your kid is gifted they will sit them in a corner and do NOTHING to address how they are learning more quickly than their peers. They will suffer from under-funded schooling that is just desperately trying to keep the bottom half of the students from spilling out. Kids are heavily influenced by their peers. There are no "garage bands" or art groups or clubs or anything for your kids to participate in. There is school and sports. If you are lucky there will be a marching band. Also, you are assuming this person is a cis hetero white male. There IS sexism in these communities, there IS racism, there IS bigotry. You will not be welcome if you do not fit in. You WILL be confronted, you WILL be harassed.
- tayo42 5y ago
  Glad to see comments like this, this kind of conversation seems to always be dominated by col calculators.
  - honkycat 5y ago
    It just grinds my gears. It is such a non-solution to the problem. Basically "if you don't like it leave." and it just muddies the water around discussions about affordability of housing. Move away from your friends and family and community to somewhere in the middle of nowhere, make a massive investment, and cross your fingers you find friends in the community! There is no job market to speak of, so good luck when the remote work fad ends[0]! Also pretending these communities are not extremely religious and contain bigotry is dishonest. It is out there. [0]: which is not guaranteed but possible
- mechanical_bear 5y ago

ricardobayes 5y ago

Looking at this from an outsider's perspective: a couple of years ago this issue was only affecting SF. Then it spread to almost all of California (Oakland at 1.6M yikes much?) Then it spread to Seattle and parts of Texas (Houston, Dallas, Austin). Looking at this progression, I'd be careful of such talk. In a few years there might not be anymore 'sane' to move to. Who knows what the next real estate trend will be, barn doors are already popular, maybe rural Oklahoma will be place to be in 5 years, and farm estates skyrocketing.

LAC-Tech 5y ago
This is exactly what has happened in NZ in the past few years. People flee the biggest cities, then those people push out others from the small cities and big towns, then even the little economically depressed towns 60 minutes from jobs are overpriced. In 2021 there is not a single remote corner of this place that's affordable anymore.
vb6sp6 5y ago
There are still reasonable homes in Texas. The real problem is that you would have to live in Texas.
- mechanical_bear 5y ago
  Booo
  - vb6sp6 5y ago
    There are so many things wrong with Texas, it is hard to even know where to start. I would probably start with "kids pledge allegiance to the Texas flag in school" [1] and end with "politicians will call you a freeloader for expecting electricity to be available in the winter" [2] 1. https://www.chron.com/news/houston-texas/article/Why-do-public-school-students-say-the-Texas-1823148.php https://www.chron.com/news/houston-texas/article/Why-do-publ... 2. https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/texas-mayor-resigns-after-telling-freezing-residents-stop-complaining-about-n1258106 https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/texas-mayor-resigns-aft...

mcguire 5y ago

https://www.realtor.com/realestateandhomes-search/Huntsville_AL/type-single-family-home/price-na-500000 https://www.realtor.com/realestateandhomes-search/Huntsville...

manthedudeguy 5y ago

> BUT. "where does this leave the majority of this country?" -- well, the majority of the country does not have as crazy a real estate market as Seattle, as far as paying ~$1.5 mil for a dump where you're basically just paying for the land. That is not most of the country. True - and the problem is less bad in cheaper areas, but it's still bad and getting worse there, too. OP may be able to afford a $300k house in Kansas, but I doubt the average worker in Kansas can.

throwaway6734 5y ago

What's the city?

t-writescode 5y ago

It's not even Seattle. There are still places going for 600k and 800k just fine. I'm not sure what this person is looking for, honestly. Even stretching out just a bit and going to the Mill Creek area for more north, or Lynnwood, or Issaquah and perfectly nice, even new construction are in their claimed price range.

hardwaregeek 5y ago

What's the ethnic breakdown like in these cities? I imagine some places have growing ethnic communities but it is hard to go from diverse enclaves like New York or the Bay Area to a less diverse city. Even going to Seattle was a bit of a shock. The Asian food was not even close to New York's. Of course many Asian and people of color move to less diverse communities. They have my respect, but I'm not sure I want to end up one of a handful of Asians or relegated to a chinatown. Moving to a cheaper city is a valid decision but it's a more complicated value choice as a person of color.

honkdaddy 5y ago
This is a perspective immigrants to America seem to have that I’ve never really understood. What’s the point of moving to a new country if the number one thing one to seek out is culture and cuisine which makes them feel like they’re back home? I certainly can’t imagine someone from Texas moving to Japan and wondering where the all American BBQ places are :)
- bsbjdkjsgc 5y ago
  More diverse = less racist. Generally speaking, of course. If you’re a person of color, it matters. If you’re the only non-white family in the neighborhood, it matters. If your kids are going to stand out in school because of the color of their skin, it matters. If you’re white, then yes, moving to Japan is probably easier (though you might be surprised).
  - robbedpeter 5y ago
    An observation, and honest question: aside from a few well known stereotypically racist areas, to my knowledge, most of the country is fine. You might run into ignorance, or be subjected to the the curiosity of others because of novelty when moving to a mostly white community, but the distribution happened because of communities and families emigrating en masse, so you get Irish towns and Polish towns and Italian places, etc. They become more diverse over time but they're not white for any reason except genetic happenstance. By and large, they don't care about race. My question is this: doesn't it matter more to engage those communities with the same level of willingness to live among them as to deliberately pick already diverse areas, or an area that matches your own genetic happenstance? If you don't have specific friends and family you're relocating for, then I'd say it's probably better to minimize the impact of any sort of decisions based on race or ethnic diversity. I think it's best to find good people and participate in your adopted community. And with that in mind, if you can work remotely, there's a vast array of affordable housing and land and communities of good people out there.

ctoth 5y ago

This seems actually to not be accurate: Top Housing Markets of 2022: Think Boise, Not New York City [0] [0]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29475091 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29475091