4 ms·

> But I would say that it's the HN commenters being incredibly obnoxious, not wikipedia being wrong for giving you the mobile site when you specifically ask for

> But I would say that it's the HN commenters being incredibly obnoxious, not wikipedia being wrong for giving you the mobile site when you specifically ask for it. But it's kinda crazy that if I'm on my phone I can't just share a URL to a page with someone who happens to be using a desktop. While I'm not sure if this is made explicit in any of the RFCs or standard docs, in my view a URL should be a locator for a resource that is agnostic of the user agent.

thaumasiotes 5y ago
> But it's kinda crazy that if I'm on my phone I can't just share a URL to a page with someone who happens to be using a desktop. > in my view a URL should be a locator for a resource that is agnostic of the user agent. You're not making sense. The mobile page has a dedicated URL. If you're browsing it, then sharing the URL will send anyone else to the same resource you're browsing, regardless of their user agent. Everyone agrees that this is a bad thing for you to do. Don't do it. The standard page will redirect mobile user-agents to the mobile page. It is a better URL to give out in every possible way. But note that this is the opposite of what you're saying; the URL that behaves the way you say you want is the bad one that you should avoid sharing. I am sympathetic to the view that the URL should just point wherever it points. This would require a change to Wikipedia's standard page so that it would display when requested on mobile instead of redirecting. That's fine. But sharing mobile links would still be awful behavior. Link to the standard page. That's what makes it the standard page.
- tshaddox 5y ago
  You're mistaken. Wikipedia automatically redirects you to the m. website if you type "en.wikipedia.org" into your phone browser. The same is true even if you explicitly type an article's URL into your phone browser, like "en.wikipedia.org/London". Google and Bing will also show mobile URLs in search results (although DuckDuckGo does not). The only way to see the actual desktop version is to click on the "Desktop" link at the very bottom of a mobile page, and even that just sets a cookie to prevent redirection back to the mobile site, so it doesn't work across multiple devices or private browsing sessions.
  - thaumasiotes 5y ago
    > You're mistaken. Wikipedia automatically redirects you to the m. website if you type "en.wikipedia.org" into your phone browser. The same is true even if you explicitly type an article's URL into your phone browser, like "en.wikipedia.org/London". What am I mistaken about? This is exactly what I said happens. I focused this information pretty heavily: >> The standard page will redirect mobile user-agents to the mobile page. >> I am sympathetic to the view that the URL should just point wherever it points. This would require a change to Wikipedia's standard page so that it would display when requested on mobile instead of redirecting.
    - tshaddox 5y ago
      You're mistaken that being on the "m." subdomain indicates that you have made some decision to do so, and that sharing that URL ought to send anyone to the mobile design. On the contrary, the entire point of a URL is for sharing a resource, and if a URL to a public resources is not shareable that is a mistake on the part of the web site, not a mistake on the part of the visitor. It's certainly not the case that "Everyone agrees that this is a bad thing for you to do." It's not a bad thing for you to do, it is precisely what you ought to do. As I explained elsewhere on the thread, one could just as easily argue that sharing the "desktop" URL is also inappropriate, because some people might want to see the "mobile" design even if they're on a desktop computer (because the "mobile" design is in fact responsive).
      - dkonofalski 5y ago
        I'm just jumping into this now but you're not really listening to what the parent is saying. You seem to be acknowledging their point but then ignoring what they're saying. No one is talking about what should happen. They're saying that, as you've confirmed, m.* is a separate resource from en.* because they exist as 2 separate pages on wikipedia.org. On the en.* page, people on mobile are incorrectly redirected to m.* which it seems that everyone agrees shouldn't be the behavior. The opposite, m.* redirecting people on desktop, doesn't occur. That means that your statement that "URLs should be for a specific resource" contradicts your other statement that "sharing that URL ought [not] to send anyone to the mobile design". If the mobile page is a separate resource, then sending someone a link to m.* should always load that resource (the mobile version) which seems to the be the opposite of what you're suggesting. Additionally, there seems to be additional confusion because everyone is assuming that the page loaded at m.* is the same page as that loaded on en.* but that doesn't seem to be the case as the page isn't responsive. It's the same text content but the stylesheet and headers are different which, by web standards, is a separate resource.
- seppel 5y ago
  > You're not making sense. The use case is: I go to the standard wikipedia page, browse a bit, and then I want to give out links to the standard wikipedia page of a specifig article. This is currently not possible without editing the URL if you are on mobile. And I dont understand why wikipedia is refusing to fix this.
  - tshaddox 5y ago
    Correct, and my claim is that there should be no such concept as "giving out a link to the standard Wikipedia page." Regardless of what type of device I'm using, I should be able to share the URL for that page to someone else regardless of what type of device they're using. The URL should literally be the uniform locator of that resource and shouldn't contain any semantics about any particular user agent's device. This is pretty obvious in the general case, where it would be impossible for me to know if the URL I am visiting contains information about my particular user agent and is thus inappropriate to share with people with other user agents. When my user agent requests "en.wikipedia.org" and receives a redirect to "en.m.wikipedia.org" there's simply no way to know whether this resource has actually moved to a new URL (which is the semantics of the HTTP response) or whether this is simply a special URL that I shouldn't share. Yes, some people might be familiar with the "m." subdomain for mobile-specific websites, but in general this sort of thing is (in my opinion) an abuse of HTTP redirects.
    - thaumasiotes 5y ago
      > Regardless of what type of device I'm using, I should be able to share the URL for that page to someone else regardless of what type of device they're using. The URL should literally be the uniform locator of that resource and shouldn't contain any semantics about any particular user agent's device. As I just pointed out, and you somehow misunderstood, this is the exact behavior of the mobile page. It is not the behavior of the standard page. But sharing a link to the mobile page is bad, and sharing a link to the standard page is good. Keep this in mind when you're deciding how URLs should behave.
      - tshaddox 5y ago
- pmontra 5y ago
  I always remove the m. from Wikipedia links when I share them somewhere that people can browse from the desktop (example HN). People tapping on that link on a phone will be redirected to the mobile version anyway. I don't remove the m. when I share on a messenger (example WhatsApp) when is somebody could receive the message on a desktop. I should probably always remove the m.

thaumasiotes 5y ago

> But it's kinda crazy that if I'm on my phone I can't just share a URL to a page with someone who happens to be using a desktop. > in my view a URL should be a locator for a resource that is agnostic of the user agent. You're not making sense. The mobile page has a dedicated URL. If you're browsing it, then sharing the URL will send anyone else to the same resource you're browsing, regardless of their user agent. Everyone agrees that this is a bad thing for you to do. Don't do it. The standard page will redirect mobile user-agents to the mobile page. It is a better URL to give out in every possible way. But note that this is the opposite of what you're saying; the URL that behaves the way you say you want is the bad one that you should avoid sharing. I am sympathetic to the view that the URL should just point wherever it points. This would require a change to Wikipedia's standard page so that it would display when requested on mobile instead of redirecting. That's fine. But sharing mobile links would still be awful behavior. Link to the standard page. That's what makes it the standard page.

tshaddox 5y ago
You're mistaken. Wikipedia automatically redirects you to the m. website if you type "en.wikipedia.org" into your phone browser. The same is true even if you explicitly type an article's URL into your phone browser, like "en.wikipedia.org/London". Google and Bing will also show mobile URLs in search results (although DuckDuckGo does not). The only way to see the actual desktop version is to click on the "Desktop" link at the very bottom of a mobile page, and even that just sets a cookie to prevent redirection back to the mobile site, so it doesn't work across multiple devices or private browsing sessions.
- thaumasiotes 5y ago
  > You're mistaken. Wikipedia automatically redirects you to the m. website if you type "en.wikipedia.org" into your phone browser. The same is true even if you explicitly type an article's URL into your phone browser, like "en.wikipedia.org/London". What am I mistaken about? This is exactly what I said happens. I focused this information pretty heavily: >> The standard page will redirect mobile user-agents to the mobile page. >> I am sympathetic to the view that the URL should just point wherever it points. This would require a change to Wikipedia's standard page so that it would display when requested on mobile instead of redirecting.
  - tshaddox 5y ago
    You're mistaken that being on the "m." subdomain indicates that you have made some decision to do so, and that sharing that URL ought to send anyone to the mobile design. On the contrary, the entire point of a URL is for sharing a resource, and if a URL to a public resources is not shareable that is a mistake on the part of the web site, not a mistake on the part of the visitor. It's certainly not the case that "Everyone agrees that this is a bad thing for you to do." It's not a bad thing for you to do, it is precisely what you ought to do. As I explained elsewhere on the thread, one could just as easily argue that sharing the "desktop" URL is also inappropriate, because some people might want to see the "mobile" design even if they're on a desktop computer (because the "mobile" design is in fact responsive).
    - dkonofalski 5y ago
      I'm just jumping into this now but you're not really listening to what the parent is saying. You seem to be acknowledging their point but then ignoring what they're saying. No one is talking about what should happen. They're saying that, as you've confirmed, m.* is a separate resource from en.* because they exist as 2 separate pages on wikipedia.org. On the en.* page, people on mobile are incorrectly redirected to m.* which it seems that everyone agrees shouldn't be the behavior. The opposite, m.* redirecting people on desktop, doesn't occur. That means that your statement that "URLs should be for a specific resource" contradicts your other statement that "sharing that URL ought [not] to send anyone to the mobile design". If the mobile page is a separate resource, then sending someone a link to m.* should always load that resource (the mobile version) which seems to the be the opposite of what you're suggesting. Additionally, there seems to be additional confusion because everyone is assuming that the page loaded at m.* is the same page as that loaded on en.* but that doesn't seem to be the case as the page isn't responsive. It's the same text content but the stylesheet and headers are different which, by web standards, is a separate resource.
seppel 5y ago
> You're not making sense. The use case is: I go to the standard wikipedia page, browse a bit, and then I want to give out links to the standard wikipedia page of a specifig article. This is currently not possible without editing the URL if you are on mobile. And I dont understand why wikipedia is refusing to fix this.
- tshaddox 5y ago
  Correct, and my claim is that there should be no such concept as "giving out a link to the standard Wikipedia page." Regardless of what type of device I'm using, I should be able to share the URL for that page to someone else regardless of what type of device they're using. The URL should literally be the uniform locator of that resource and shouldn't contain any semantics about any particular user agent's device. This is pretty obvious in the general case, where it would be impossible for me to know if the URL I am visiting contains information about my particular user agent and is thus inappropriate to share with people with other user agents. When my user agent requests "en.wikipedia.org" and receives a redirect to "en.m.wikipedia.org" there's simply no way to know whether this resource has actually moved to a new URL (which is the semantics of the HTTP response) or whether this is simply a special URL that I shouldn't share. Yes, some people might be familiar with the "m." subdomain for mobile-specific websites, but in general this sort of thing is (in my opinion) an abuse of HTTP redirects.
  - thaumasiotes 5y ago
    > Regardless of what type of device I'm using, I should be able to share the URL for that page to someone else regardless of what type of device they're using. The URL should literally be the uniform locator of that resource and shouldn't contain any semantics about any particular user agent's device. As I just pointed out, and you somehow misunderstood, this is the exact behavior of the mobile page. It is not the behavior of the standard page. But sharing a link to the mobile page is bad, and sharing a link to the standard page is good. Keep this in mind when you're deciding how URLs should behave.
    - tshaddox 5y ago
pmontra 5y ago
I always remove the m. from Wikipedia links when I share them somewhere that people can browse from the desktop (example HN). People tapping on that link on a phone will be redirected to the mobile version anyway. I don't remove the m. when I share on a messenger (example WhatsApp) when is somebody could receive the message on a desktop. I should probably always remove the m.