5 ms·

I have a lot of issues with Musk but you’re making this claim about somebody who’s led one company to have the highest safety ratings, ever, across multiple mod

by s5300 5y ago

I have a lot of issues with Musk but you’re making this claim about somebody who’s led one company to have the highest safety ratings, ever, across multiple models of cars + factory safety levels 2x+ those of the competition, as well as another company that’s safely sent multiple sets of astronauts to & from space @ something like 1/10th the old cost & in a much more comfortable setting.

simion314 5y ago
>to have the highest safety ratings, only in Tesla PR reports(super easy to lie with statistics). Tesla is an expensive and safe car, people are having issue with the "autopilot" that is beta tested by unpaid volunteers on streets without the public pedestrians having to opt-in the beta.
- s5300 5y ago
  Uhhh…… What? Pretty sure the ratings were from the NHTSA Are you saying Elon controls the NHTSA?
  - simion314 5y ago
    Tesla(with the autopilot off but drive assist on) is a safe car, I don't deny that , it is expensive ,big and with a low center of mass. The stats most fanboys and Tesla tweet about though are not about the ratings and about the incidents per mile and those are compared with everything including teens driving old cars (where few teens drive a Tesla). Tell Elon Musk to publish all the incidents data and we can then trust his tweets. But my main point, if you wish to also give your opinion in, is should pedestrians say maybe vote if random people can beta test Tesla's audopilot (including the beta updates) on the roads where they and their children walk? I think most people would consider that a paid test driver with some extra setup like attention control and camera surveillance should be allowed to run beta tests but not any random dude(especially some idiot fan that is also streaming at the same time while stress tests the newest update)
- dncornholio 5y ago
  Exactly this. Autopilot was nowhere road ready when it launched. There have been multiple accidents that a normal person would've easily avoided. Plus the fact you are not playing with your own safety but that of others as well, be it drivers or pedestrians. You can give so many warning to people to not rely on Autopilot and keep their hands on wheel. Well, people will be people.. You cannot hide your responsibility behind user instructions and warning messages IMHO.
Pyramus 5y ago
Your argument goes like this: Somebody who is incredibly successful, a genius in many ways and very popular, can't be also a lier and psychopath. That's a logical fallacy. In fact, the two are positively correlated (and there is a long list of entrepreneurs who are both charismatic geniuses and psychopaths). So you need to differentiate what Elon says, and what is can be verified. In some cases the delta can be huge (and quite shocking). E.g. > factory safety levels 2x+ those of the competition Tesla is the single biggest OSHA violator in California. https://www.thedrive.com/news/26727/tesla-had-3-times-as-many-osha-violations-as-the-10-largest-us-plants-combined https://www.thedrive.com/news/26727/tesla-had-3-times-as-man...
- s5300 5y ago
  I didn’t realize there were other major auto manufacturers in California. Could you link them to me?
  - chucksta 5y ago
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Motor_vehicle_assembly_plants_in_California https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Motor_vehicle_assembl...
    - s5300 5y ago
      The first three of the links I clicked on haven’t been operational in over half a century. Feel free to link some of the ones operational within… a few decades I guess.
    - Gwypaas 5y ago
      The only one still operating except Tesla's, which is listed 3 times on that page, is this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_Auto_Body_California https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_Auto_Body_California It has ~300 employees compared to Tesla's Fremont factory with ~10000 employees.
  - gamblor956 5y ago
    OSHA is a federal agency. Tesla leads the nation in OSHA violations. From the linked article: "data collected by Forbes shows that Tesla has accumulated more than three times the number of Occupational Safety and Health Administration (OSHA) violations that its top 10 competitors amassed from 2014-2018." And indeed, the data shows that with 75% of reported safety violations, Tesla not just leads the nation in violations, it has more than 3x the safety violations of every other US auto maker combined.
gamblor956 5y ago
factory safety levels 2x+ those of the competition This is objectively not true. Tesla's Fremont factory leads the nation in terms of safety complaints and safety violations. highest safety ratings, ever, across multiple models of cars This is not true. NHTSA has awarded many cars 5 star ratings (i.e., their highest rating). Multiple car makers have multiple lines of 5-star rated vehicles. And in fact...Tesla lost those 5-star ratings this year. https://www.reuters.com/technology/us-agency-briefed-tesla-radar-sensor-removal-2021-05-26/ https://www.reuters.com/technology/us-agency-briefed-tesla-r... as well as another company that’s safely sent multiple sets of astronauts to & from space @ something like 1/10th the old cost & in a much more comfortable setting Dragon costs $55 million/seat, for 3 seats vs $64m/seat for 7 seats for the Space Shuttle. Given inflation, Dragon is actually more expensive than the Space Shuttle, for less capacity. https://www.cnbc.com/2021/11/10/spacex-crew-3-astronaut-launch-for-nasa-what-you-should-know.html https://www.cnbc.com/2021/11/10/spacex-crew-3-astronaut-laun..., https://www.nasa.gov/centers/kennedy/about/information/shuttle_faq.html https://www.nasa.gov/centers/kennedy/about/information/shutt... And Dragon is so comfortable that the toilet didn't work and they had to break out the diapers for the first time in decades.
- greedo 5y ago
  Dragon can carry 7, though 4 is the max for NASA flights. Also, if you think a Shuttle mission only cost $500M, you're off by a factor of 2-3.
  - gamblor956 5y ago
    If you disagree with NASA's estimates for how much a Shuttle mission cost, you should take that up with NASA.
    - greedo 5y ago
      I'm not the one claiming a cheaper price. According to the Planetary Society, it cost $49B to develop and launch the first Shuttle mission (in 2020 dollars).[1] According to Pielke and Byerly [2]: The US Congress and NASA spent more than US$192 billion (in 2010 dollars) on the shuttle from 1971 to 2010 (see 'A costly enterprise'). The agency launched 131 flights; two ended in tragedy with the loss of Challenger in 1986 and Columbia in 2003. During the operational years from 1982 to 2010, the average cost per launch was about $1.2 billion. Over the life of the programme, this increases to about $1.5 billion per launch (R. A. Pielke Space Policy 10, 78–80; 1994). This is in 2010 dollars, but it doesn't even require adjusting for inflation to see the cost is far higher than your reporting. Each seat cost over $214M in 2010 dollars. Just for giggles, inflation since 2010 would bump that cost up to 272M per seat. It's fair to criticize Musk for toxic work environments at Tesla, and for generally being a Twitter douche. But SpaceX has been an extraordinary success. 1. https://www.planetary.org/space-policy/sts-program-development-cost https://www.planetary.org/space-policy/sts-program-developme... 2. https://www.nature.com/articles/472038d https://www.nature.com/articles/472038d

by s5300 5y ago

simion314 5y ago

>to have the highest safety ratings, only in Tesla PR reports(super easy to lie with statistics). Tesla is an expensive and safe car, people are having issue with the "autopilot" that is beta tested by unpaid volunteers on streets without the public pedestrians having to opt-in the beta.

s5300 5y ago
Uhhh…… What? Pretty sure the ratings were from the NHTSA Are you saying Elon controls the NHTSA?
- simion314 5y ago
  Tesla(with the autopilot off but drive assist on) is a safe car, I don't deny that , it is expensive ,big and with a low center of mass. The stats most fanboys and Tesla tweet about though are not about the ratings and about the incidents per mile and those are compared with everything including teens driving old cars (where few teens drive a Tesla). Tell Elon Musk to publish all the incidents data and we can then trust his tweets. But my main point, if you wish to also give your opinion in, is should pedestrians say maybe vote if random people can beta test Tesla's audopilot (including the beta updates) on the roads where they and their children walk? I think most people would consider that a paid test driver with some extra setup like attention control and camera surveillance should be allowed to run beta tests but not any random dude(especially some idiot fan that is also streaming at the same time while stress tests the newest update)
dncornholio 5y ago
Exactly this. Autopilot was nowhere road ready when it launched. There have been multiple accidents that a normal person would've easily avoided. Plus the fact you are not playing with your own safety but that of others as well, be it drivers or pedestrians. You can give so many warning to people to not rely on Autopilot and keep their hands on wheel. Well, people will be people.. You cannot hide your responsibility behind user instructions and warning messages IMHO.

Pyramus 5y ago

Your argument goes like this: Somebody who is incredibly successful, a genius in many ways and very popular, can't be also a lier and psychopath. That's a logical fallacy. In fact, the two are positively correlated (and there is a long list of entrepreneurs who are both charismatic geniuses and psychopaths). So you need to differentiate what Elon says, and what is can be verified. In some cases the delta can be huge (and quite shocking). E.g. > factory safety levels 2x+ those of the competition Tesla is the single biggest OSHA violator in California. https://www.thedrive.com/news/26727/tesla-had-3-times-as-many-osha-violations-as-the-10-largest-us-plants-combined https://www.thedrive.com/news/26727/tesla-had-3-times-as-man...

s5300 5y ago
I didn’t realize there were other major auto manufacturers in California. Could you link them to me?
- chucksta 5y ago
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Motor_vehicle_assembly_plants_in_California https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Motor_vehicle_assembl...
  - s5300 5y ago
    The first three of the links I clicked on haven’t been operational in over half a century. Feel free to link some of the ones operational within… a few decades I guess.
  - Gwypaas 5y ago
    The only one still operating except Tesla's, which is listed 3 times on that page, is this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_Auto_Body_California https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_Auto_Body_California It has ~300 employees compared to Tesla's Fremont factory with ~10000 employees.
- gamblor956 5y ago
  OSHA is a federal agency. Tesla leads the nation in OSHA violations. From the linked article: "data collected by Forbes shows that Tesla has accumulated more than three times the number of Occupational Safety and Health Administration (OSHA) violations that its top 10 competitors amassed from 2014-2018." And indeed, the data shows that with 75% of reported safety violations, Tesla not just leads the nation in violations, it has more than 3x the safety violations of every other US auto maker combined.

gamblor956 5y ago

factory safety levels 2x+ those of the competition This is objectively not true. Tesla's Fremont factory leads the nation in terms of safety complaints and safety violations. highest safety ratings, ever, across multiple models of cars This is not true. NHTSA has awarded many cars 5 star ratings (i.e., their highest rating). Multiple car makers have multiple lines of 5-star rated vehicles. And in fact...Tesla lost those 5-star ratings this year. https://www.reuters.com/technology/us-agency-briefed-tesla-radar-sensor-removal-2021-05-26/ https://www.reuters.com/technology/us-agency-briefed-tesla-r... as well as another company that’s safely sent multiple sets of astronauts to & from space @ something like 1/10th the old cost & in a much more comfortable setting Dragon costs $55 million/seat, for 3 seats vs $64m/seat for 7 seats for the Space Shuttle. Given inflation, Dragon is actually more expensive than the Space Shuttle, for less capacity. https://www.cnbc.com/2021/11/10/spacex-crew-3-astronaut-launch-for-nasa-what-you-should-know.html https://www.cnbc.com/2021/11/10/spacex-crew-3-astronaut-laun..., https://www.nasa.gov/centers/kennedy/about/information/shuttle_faq.html https://www.nasa.gov/centers/kennedy/about/information/shutt... And Dragon is so comfortable that the toilet didn't work and they had to break out the diapers for the first time in decades.

greedo 5y ago
Dragon can carry 7, though 4 is the max for NASA flights. Also, if you think a Shuttle mission only cost $500M, you're off by a factor of 2-3.
- gamblor956 5y ago
  If you disagree with NASA's estimates for how much a Shuttle mission cost, you should take that up with NASA.
  - greedo 5y ago
    I'm not the one claiming a cheaper price. According to the Planetary Society, it cost $49B to develop and launch the first Shuttle mission (in 2020 dollars).[1] According to Pielke and Byerly [2]: The US Congress and NASA spent more than US$192 billion (in 2010 dollars) on the shuttle from 1971 to 2010 (see 'A costly enterprise'). The agency launched 131 flights; two ended in tragedy with the loss of Challenger in 1986 and Columbia in 2003. During the operational years from 1982 to 2010, the average cost per launch was about $1.2 billion. Over the life of the programme, this increases to about $1.5 billion per launch (R. A. Pielke Space Policy 10, 78–80; 1994). This is in 2010 dollars, but it doesn't even require adjusting for inflation to see the cost is far higher than your reporting. Each seat cost over $214M in 2010 dollars. Just for giggles, inflation since 2010 would bump that cost up to 272M per seat. It's fair to criticize Musk for toxic work environments at Tesla, and for generally being a Twitter douche. But SpaceX has been an extraordinary success. 1. https://www.planetary.org/space-policy/sts-program-development-cost https://www.planetary.org/space-policy/sts-program-developme... 2. https://www.nature.com/articles/472038d https://www.nature.com/articles/472038d