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On (1), One thing I've noticed happening a lot only these days is that PMs seem to want to add further improvements to something (to beef up their resume?) But

On (1), One thing I've noticed happening a lot only these days is that PMs seem to want to add further improvements to something (to beef up their resume?) But that thing was already working great and the activity ends up making it worse. Reddit, Google chat products, GitHub ux rewrite for the first few weeks, YouTube Product schools need to instill this idea that some things _may_ already be perfect the way they are.

robofanatic 5y ago
if you don't change something you are not "innovating". this industry runs on "innovation"
whimsicalism 5y ago
Most of github's changes as of late have been improvements imo
- jacobr1 5y ago
  Because they weren't done. Not all change is bad. But for a "mature product," one needs to carefully consider the cost of bloat. Modular/plugin type systems (done well) can be one way to avoid this, since they allow users to select their own feature bundle. But you really need to manage the abstractions and interfaces carefully to not add more friction or user confusion.
- mohanmcgeek 5y ago
  The first few weeks after the redesign had a lot of bad things that were fixed because people started raising issues. It didn't show the last commit message, for example.
jacobr1 5y ago
> Product schools This isn't really a thing. Oh there are few programs out there and there are some great private workshops, but there isn't degree you can get. There both are Design Schools, and Business/Management Entrepreneur programs that cover some aspects of this. But most PMs get that job from some other angle. And even if they did cover this ... it directly counteracts their job responsibility. Yes, you should move me to another project or fire my, this project should be considered dead. How many people are going to do that? Within certain companies and cultures with many projects and growth, one probably could, because you have a clear path forward. Or you see the writing on the wall and jump to another, higher growth company. The real problem isn't on the PM side, it is on the business leader / GM / CEO side of things. But even then, there is some other stakeholder asking them to expand them TAM and grow in some other direction that dictates some other feature coverage. This is a really hard trap to avoid.
- nielsole 5y ago
  > but there isn't degree you can get In Europe you can get a bachelor of arts in product management: https://code.berlin/en/study/product-management/ https://code.berlin/en/study/product-management/
bartwe 5y ago
If you don't keep developers working on a product you'll find a few years later that nobody has a clue how to support it and then the rewrites start.
_greim_ 5y ago
I think this is a symptom of PMs (and devs) being hyper-focused on the pain-points of their customers. They launched The Product a year ago, but ever since then users have complained about Problem X. The fact that The Product is amazing and creating real human value, is kind of irrelevant, both to the company and to the users who are suffering Problem X. Those users are raising hell. Meanwhile, tech corporate culture holds as a basic tenet that if your product is done, it's dead. But solving Problem X requires re-thinking the entire UI, so off we go.

robofanatic 5y ago

if you don't change something you are not "innovating". this industry runs on "innovation"

whimsicalism 5y ago

Most of github's changes as of late have been improvements imo

jacobr1 5y ago
Because they weren't done. Not all change is bad. But for a "mature product," one needs to carefully consider the cost of bloat. Modular/plugin type systems (done well) can be one way to avoid this, since they allow users to select their own feature bundle. But you really need to manage the abstractions and interfaces carefully to not add more friction or user confusion.
mohanmcgeek 5y ago
The first few weeks after the redesign had a lot of bad things that were fixed because people started raising issues. It didn't show the last commit message, for example.

jacobr1 5y ago

> Product schools This isn't really a thing. Oh there are few programs out there and there are some great private workshops, but there isn't degree you can get. There both are Design Schools, and Business/Management Entrepreneur programs that cover some aspects of this. But most PMs get that job from some other angle. And even if they did cover this ... it directly counteracts their job responsibility. Yes, you should move me to another project or fire my, this project should be considered dead. How many people are going to do that? Within certain companies and cultures with many projects and growth, one probably could, because you have a clear path forward. Or you see the writing on the wall and jump to another, higher growth company. The real problem isn't on the PM side, it is on the business leader / GM / CEO side of things. But even then, there is some other stakeholder asking them to expand them TAM and grow in some other direction that dictates some other feature coverage. This is a really hard trap to avoid.

nielsole 5y ago
> but there isn't degree you can get In Europe you can get a bachelor of arts in product management: https://code.berlin/en/study/product-management/ https://code.berlin/en/study/product-management/

bartwe 5y ago

If you don't keep developers working on a product you'll find a few years later that nobody has a clue how to support it and then the rewrites start.

_greim_ 5y ago

I think this is a symptom of PMs (and devs) being hyper-focused on the pain-points of their customers. They launched The Product a year ago, but ever since then users have complained about Problem X. The fact that The Product is amazing and creating real human value, is kind of irrelevant, both to the company and to the users who are suffering Problem X. Those users are raising hell. Meanwhile, tech corporate culture holds as a basic tenet that if your product is done, it's dead. But solving Problem X requires re-thinking the entire UI, so off we go.