5 ms·

bullshit in whose opinion? As someone who does not believe in god, are all of the church related jobs bullshit? Or are they not, since a lot of people want chur

bullshit in whose opinion? As someone who does not believe in god, are all of the church related jobs bullshit? Or are they not, since a lot of people want churches and their services? If a job exists, there's apparently at least one person who wants it done.

thedailymail 5y ago
I think the parent quote may be in reference to David Graeber's commentary on "bullshit jobs".
- bruce343434 5y ago
  I figured as much. But I don't agree with the premise of the book. Sure, we all "know" the jobs are bullshit, and yet they aren't. Let's go over the wikipedia summary at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bullshit_Jobs https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bullshit_Jobs >flunkies, who serve to make their superiors feel important, e.g., receptionists, administrative assistants, door attendants, makers of websites whose sites neglect ease of use and speed for looks; They serve, hence, not a bullshit job. We might look down on it, but they are providing value to their employer. Sadly perhaps, humans are just deeply subjective. See again my religion example. Also, this seems really dismissive of receptionists/PAs. These people do a lot of real work. >goons, who act to harm or deceive others on behalf of their employer, e.g., lobbyists, corporate lawyers, telemarketers, public relations specialists, community managers; Not very nice no, but again they provide value to their bosses. Probably to themselves too. >duct tapers, who temporarily fix problems that could be fixed permanently, e.g., programmers repairing bloated code, airline desk staff who calm passengers whose bags do not arrive; This just seems to be naïve idealism. >box tickers, who create the appearance that something useful is being done when it is not, e.g., survey administrators, in-house magazine journalists, corporate compliance officers, quality service managers; Here it gets interesting. These people may actually be the first that don't provide value, but trick others into thinking they do. >taskmasters, who manage—or create extra work for—those who do not need it, e.g., middle management, leadership professionals. This is a mix of dumb (mis)managers, and malicious time wasters. I think it's obvious that a lot of resources of all kinds are wasted by inefficiencies caused by stupidity. That's a human (as in, we as a species) problem. Then there's malice, which fits into the "tricks others into believing they provide value" category. Anyway, that's just my take on it.
  - watwut 5y ago
    > flunkies, who serve to make their superiors feel important, e.g., receptionists, administrative assistants, door attendants, makers of websites whose sites neglect ease of use and speed for looks; Imo, receptionists, administrative assistant and "makers of websites whose sites neglect ease of use and speed for looks" are all actually useful. Their function is not just to make someone feel superior. Instead, I would argue that whoever wrote that was caught in own feeling of superiority over service staff.
    - bruce343434 5y ago
      Exactly. I can't imagine running a doctors office without a reception. Or really any public facing company/office without a reception. Would anyone like to have the dentist use his time to answer the phone rather than fix teeth? Seems like that would under utilize the dentist's degree.
      - kwhitefoot 5y ago
        Reception at my doctor's in Norway are all qualified nurses. My sister on the other hand goes to a surgery in the UK has a dedicated receptionist. My sister's experience of visiting the surgery is considerably worse than mine. At the dental practice that I use the hygienists take turns to run the reception desk. > Would anyone like to have the dentist use his time to answer the phone rather than fix teeth? I don't care who answers the telephone as long as they are competent to answer questions and have authority to solve problems.
        brianwawok 5y ago
        Wouldn't that raise prices, to use a nurse as a reception? In the US it would be something like: Receptionist: 30k / year Nurse: 80k / year. So you have: Doctor's office 1: 3x Nurse, 240k per year in salary Doctor's office 2: 2x Nurse, 1x Receptionist, 190k pear year. That 50k in extra cost has to come from somewhere. Lower paid doctors, higher costs, ???
smitty1e 5y ago
Church worker; social worker: what's the difference?
- watwut 5y ago
  That they are two massively different occupations, with different goals, different processes and different regulations they fall under. Just about the only thing they have the same is low salary.
  - PeterisP 5y ago
    The point is that there's more overlap than how it looks like on the surface level. E.g. part of what a A.D. 1500 village pastor does is what's done nowadays by psychotherapists and marriage counselors; the role in filling the people's needs is similar even if the processes and regulations are wildly different, just as the processes and regulations of A.D. 1500 shoemaker or surgeon are wildly different than the modern shoe factory worker or surgeon.
agumonkey 5y ago
That's ignoring a lot of structure induced jobs. Often nobody wants it done but you can't fire a person so you invent a role. Or sometimes the need is mostly a factor of higher rank carelessness or incompetence.. fix the tooling and there's no need to hire 5 more guys to grind through endless papers or mails.

thedailymail 5y ago

I think the parent quote may be in reference to David Graeber's commentary on "bullshit jobs".

bruce343434 5y ago
I figured as much. But I don't agree with the premise of the book. Sure, we all "know" the jobs are bullshit, and yet they aren't. Let's go over the wikipedia summary at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bullshit_Jobs https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bullshit_Jobs >flunkies, who serve to make their superiors feel important, e.g., receptionists, administrative assistants, door attendants, makers of websites whose sites neglect ease of use and speed for looks; They serve, hence, not a bullshit job. We might look down on it, but they are providing value to their employer. Sadly perhaps, humans are just deeply subjective. See again my religion example. Also, this seems really dismissive of receptionists/PAs. These people do a lot of real work. >goons, who act to harm or deceive others on behalf of their employer, e.g., lobbyists, corporate lawyers, telemarketers, public relations specialists, community managers; Not very nice no, but again they provide value to their bosses. Probably to themselves too. >duct tapers, who temporarily fix problems that could be fixed permanently, e.g., programmers repairing bloated code, airline desk staff who calm passengers whose bags do not arrive; This just seems to be naïve idealism. >box tickers, who create the appearance that something useful is being done when it is not, e.g., survey administrators, in-house magazine journalists, corporate compliance officers, quality service managers; Here it gets interesting. These people may actually be the first that don't provide value, but trick others into thinking they do. >taskmasters, who manage—or create extra work for—those who do not need it, e.g., middle management, leadership professionals. This is a mix of dumb (mis)managers, and malicious time wasters. I think it's obvious that a lot of resources of all kinds are wasted by inefficiencies caused by stupidity. That's a human (as in, we as a species) problem. Then there's malice, which fits into the "tricks others into believing they provide value" category. Anyway, that's just my take on it.
- watwut 5y ago
  > flunkies, who serve to make their superiors feel important, e.g., receptionists, administrative assistants, door attendants, makers of websites whose sites neglect ease of use and speed for looks; Imo, receptionists, administrative assistant and "makers of websites whose sites neglect ease of use and speed for looks" are all actually useful. Their function is not just to make someone feel superior. Instead, I would argue that whoever wrote that was caught in own feeling of superiority over service staff.
  - bruce343434 5y ago
    Exactly. I can't imagine running a doctors office without a reception. Or really any public facing company/office without a reception. Would anyone like to have the dentist use his time to answer the phone rather than fix teeth? Seems like that would under utilize the dentist's degree.
    - kwhitefoot 5y ago
      Reception at my doctor's in Norway are all qualified nurses. My sister on the other hand goes to a surgery in the UK has a dedicated receptionist. My sister's experience of visiting the surgery is considerably worse than mine. At the dental practice that I use the hygienists take turns to run the reception desk. > Would anyone like to have the dentist use his time to answer the phone rather than fix teeth? I don't care who answers the telephone as long as they are competent to answer questions and have authority to solve problems.
      - brianwawok 5y ago
        Wouldn't that raise prices, to use a nurse as a reception? In the US it would be something like: Receptionist: 30k / year Nurse: 80k / year. So you have: Doctor's office 1: 3x Nurse, 240k per year in salary Doctor's office 2: 2x Nurse, 1x Receptionist, 190k pear year. That 50k in extra cost has to come from somewhere. Lower paid doctors, higher costs, ???

smitty1e 5y ago

Church worker; social worker: what's the difference?

watwut 5y ago
That they are two massively different occupations, with different goals, different processes and different regulations they fall under. Just about the only thing they have the same is low salary.
- PeterisP 5y ago
  The point is that there's more overlap than how it looks like on the surface level. E.g. part of what a A.D. 1500 village pastor does is what's done nowadays by psychotherapists and marriage counselors; the role in filling the people's needs is similar even if the processes and regulations are wildly different, just as the processes and regulations of A.D. 1500 shoemaker or surgeon are wildly different than the modern shoe factory worker or surgeon.

agumonkey 5y ago

That's ignoring a lot of structure induced jobs. Often nobody wants it done but you can't fire a person so you invent a role. Or sometimes the need is mostly a factor of higher rank carelessness or incompetence.. fix the tooling and there's no need to hire 5 more guys to grind through endless papers or mails.