8 ms·

Not to mention loanwords (saké, canapé, risqué, voilà, déjà vu) and common nouns having ö as well like coördination. It's baffling that a native speaker isn't a

Not to mention loanwords (saké, canapé, risqué, voilà, déjà vu) and common nouns having ö as well like coördination. It's baffling that a native speaker isn't aware of the orthography of his own language.

simongray 5y ago
And naïve
- eesmith 5y ago
  Wikipedia comments '"naive" is now the more usual spelling' - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naivety https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naivety. While I've adored the word 'coördinate' ever since I saw it used in an English translation of Verne's "80,000 Leagues Under the Sea" (I even spelled it that way on a spelling test, with no points removed), https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diaeresis_(diacritic)#Modern_usage https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diaeresis_(diacritic)#Modern_u... correctly refers to it as "largely archaic", limited mostly to the house styles of a few publications. I specifically ignored loan words as I wanted to highlight "English" examples. As https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_terms_with_diacritical_marks https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_terms_with_diacritical... comments, "In many cases, imported words can be found in print in both their accented and unaccented versions", so using the foreign orthography may be seen as an affection that a native English speaker could ignore. See for example the Wikipedia entry for "facade"/"façade", which mostly uses façade, but sometimes facade, and where there's years of history questioning which orthography to use (see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Fa%C3%A7ade https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Fa%C3%A7ade ) , and where other Wikipedia pages use 'facade', like https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Double-skin_facade https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Double-skin_facade and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_high-rise_facade_fires https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_high-rise_facade_fires . Other relevant English proper names include Brontë and Ketèlbey.
  - WorldMaker 5y ago
    Just note that "largely archaic" doesn't mean useless or dead, just "hasn't been used as much in a while" and there is a strong case to be made that it makes the language better and fell out of favor not because it wasn't useful but because it was more expensive (in the age of printing presses and lead type; in the age before Unicode where encoding problems and/or difficulty typing accents/graves/diareses at all without expensive keyboard hardware; etc). The strong association of the diaresis with the house style of the New Yorker is pretty explicitly a class divide in print: the New Yorker could afford the time and care to get the diareses correct everywhere on principle, whereas average newspapers likely could not. I've known Elementary School teachers make very strong cases that it is time we bring back the common usage of the diareses in English to denote dipthongs versus syllable breaks. We finally have the technology to do it, it isn't an expensive overhead, and most soft keyboards on the average phone make it really easy to do it. It's still a bit harder on other computers, but even there emoji soft-keyboards and IMEs are catching up in modern OSes for Modern English users (thanks emoji). For instance in Windows today the diaresis versions of most vowels is relatively easily inputted from the emoji soft-keyboard/IME in Windows 10+ (Win+. or Win+; your choice, to open) under the Math/Symbols tab (denoted by an Omega Ω) and the "Accents" sub-tab denoted by a cedilla ç (our friend from façade).
    - dragonwriter 5y ago
      > I've known Elementary School teachers make very strong cases that it is time we bring back the common usage of the diareses in English to denote dipthongs versus syllable breaks. The ship of regular relations between orthography and pronunciation in English has not merely sailed, but also been torpedoed, sunk, buried in the muck at the bottom, and fossilized. Diareses won't bring it back, or even measurably move the needle. > For instance in Windows today the diaresis versions of most vowels is relatively easily inputted from the emoji soft-keyboard/IME in Windows 10+ (Win+. or Win+; your choice, to open) under the Math/Symbols tab (denoted by an Omega Ω) and the "Accents" sub-tab denoted by a cedilla ç (our friend from façade). Navigating through three submenus from a pop-up menu is not a “relatively easy” way to input a character. Even if you prefer the English (US) keyboard layout generally, it's easier to enable the English (International) layout, Ctrl-Shift to switch to it, type " followed by a character for which the diaresis is supported to get the accented character and Ctrl-Shift to return to the US English keyboard than to use the Emoji tool.
eesmith 5y ago
Yes, I forgot to mention that Zoë lives in Doña Ana county, NM.

simongray 5y ago

And naïve

eesmith 5y ago
Wikipedia comments '"naive" is now the more usual spelling' - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naivety https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naivety. While I've adored the word 'coördinate' ever since I saw it used in an English translation of Verne's "80,000 Leagues Under the Sea" (I even spelled it that way on a spelling test, with no points removed), https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diaeresis_(diacritic)#Modern_usage https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diaeresis_(diacritic)#Modern_u... correctly refers to it as "largely archaic", limited mostly to the house styles of a few publications. I specifically ignored loan words as I wanted to highlight "English" examples. As https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_terms_with_diacritical_marks https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_terms_with_diacritical... comments, "In many cases, imported words can be found in print in both their accented and unaccented versions", so using the foreign orthography may be seen as an affection that a native English speaker could ignore. See for example the Wikipedia entry for "facade"/"façade", which mostly uses façade, but sometimes facade, and where there's years of history questioning which orthography to use (see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Fa%C3%A7ade https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Fa%C3%A7ade ) , and where other Wikipedia pages use 'facade', like https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Double-skin_facade https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Double-skin_facade and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_high-rise_facade_fires https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_high-rise_facade_fires . Other relevant English proper names include Brontë and Ketèlbey.
- WorldMaker 5y ago
  Just note that "largely archaic" doesn't mean useless or dead, just "hasn't been used as much in a while" and there is a strong case to be made that it makes the language better and fell out of favor not because it wasn't useful but because it was more expensive (in the age of printing presses and lead type; in the age before Unicode where encoding problems and/or difficulty typing accents/graves/diareses at all without expensive keyboard hardware; etc). The strong association of the diaresis with the house style of the New Yorker is pretty explicitly a class divide in print: the New Yorker could afford the time and care to get the diareses correct everywhere on principle, whereas average newspapers likely could not. I've known Elementary School teachers make very strong cases that it is time we bring back the common usage of the diareses in English to denote dipthongs versus syllable breaks. We finally have the technology to do it, it isn't an expensive overhead, and most soft keyboards on the average phone make it really easy to do it. It's still a bit harder on other computers, but even there emoji soft-keyboards and IMEs are catching up in modern OSes for Modern English users (thanks emoji). For instance in Windows today the diaresis versions of most vowels is relatively easily inputted from the emoji soft-keyboard/IME in Windows 10+ (Win+. or Win+; your choice, to open) under the Math/Symbols tab (denoted by an Omega Ω) and the "Accents" sub-tab denoted by a cedilla ç (our friend from façade).
  - dragonwriter 5y ago
    > I've known Elementary School teachers make very strong cases that it is time we bring back the common usage of the diareses in English to denote dipthongs versus syllable breaks. The ship of regular relations between orthography and pronunciation in English has not merely sailed, but also been torpedoed, sunk, buried in the muck at the bottom, and fossilized. Diareses won't bring it back, or even measurably move the needle. > For instance in Windows today the diaresis versions of most vowels is relatively easily inputted from the emoji soft-keyboard/IME in Windows 10+ (Win+. or Win+; your choice, to open) under the Math/Symbols tab (denoted by an Omega Ω) and the "Accents" sub-tab denoted by a cedilla ç (our friend from façade). Navigating through three submenus from a pop-up menu is not a “relatively easy” way to input a character. Even if you prefer the English (US) keyboard layout generally, it's easier to enable the English (International) layout, Ctrl-Shift to switch to it, type " followed by a character for which the diaresis is supported to get the accented character and Ctrl-Shift to return to the US English keyboard than to use the Emoji tool.

eesmith 5y ago

Yes, I forgot to mention that Zoë lives in Doña Ana county, NM.