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I sometimes wonder whether there is any purpose to it in the long term. If/when Signal becomes big enough to be used by a lot of people, they will want to monet

I sometimes wonder whether there is any purpose to it in the long term. If/when Signal becomes big enough to be used by a lot of people, they will want to monetize too and the governments will become interested in monitoring messages there too. It just feels futile. As long as companies need to turn a profit and governments can surreptitiously surveil their citizens there's no long-term solution. We can move to the next platform until that becomes popular (and hence worth monetizing and surveilling), then the next, repeat. Its a technical solution to a political problem.

mukundesh 5y ago
Signal is developed by a non-profit and is open source, they have a higher chance of staying independent. With the cost of cloud services dropping hopefully there is less of the back-pressure to monetise
- javajosh 5y ago
  BTW I just learned that you can setup Amazon Smile to pay Signal - .5% of your purchases goes to them as a donation. https://smile.amazon.com/ch/82-4506840 https://smile.amazon.com/ch/82-4506840
- SequoiaHope 5y ago
  I’ve always assumed signal was a honeypot. They publish some source code but obviously we can’t verify the actual code running on iOS or (I assume) Android devices am I right? It seems like publishing open source could be a smoke screen. When they push code to devices they could link in alternate libraries that do whatever they want. They may even be able to push special code to targeted phones, avoiding detection by security researchers.
  - indigo945 5y ago
    If this is your threat model, you can sideload the app instead of installing from the app store. This way, you can verify that you have the same app as everyone else and have not fallen victim to a supply chain attack. Ensuring you received an unmodified phone without a nefarious operating system or baseband is probably harder.
    - TaylorAlexander 5y ago
      > If this is your threat model, you can sideload the app instead of installing from the app store. Not on iOS.
  - _abox 5y ago
    If they'd care to publish it on F-Droid they'd have reproducible builds. But alas they don't.
  - hiq 5y ago
    > They publish some source code but obviously we can’t verify the actual code running on iOS or (I assume) Android devices am I right? No, they have reproducible builds. Everything else you said apply even more to other apps, not sure why you think Signal is more suspicious in that regard. But with reproducible builds and the .apk they have on their website, you can check that the source matches it every time you update, which is not something you can do with most other apps.
    - SequoiaHope 5y ago
      > they have reproducible builds. Ah, I see on Android they do. Not iOS according to an open github issue since 2015. I am suspicious of signal because everyone says "use Signal it is secure" and it is popularly known for this. Because of this reputation for security, users will get comfortable and talk about their illicit activity, which makes it an attractive target for power brokers the world over. Every app could have this problem, but Signal is the one everyone keeps saying is secure, so it's the place people will spill their secrets. Reproducible builds on android look cool, but I wonder if there are other threat models on Android than dishonest builds of the program itself.
BLKNSLVR 5y ago
A decentralised, trustless future perhaps? I'm semi-conspiratorial, semi-fatalistic about society's ability to change politics politically / non-technically. There are too many who are too apathetic (and I might even be one of them by already being semi-fatalistic) that anchor the current system in perpetuity. My conspiratorial side says this is by design, whilst my fatalistic side says it's human nature (essentially Hanlon's razor). Revolutionary change is often a case of "it" getting (a lot) worse before it gets better, but with the inevitability of returning to the previous status quo just with different bums on the same seats. (I've previously stated my desire to write a novel based on this concept in order to try and explore the inevitability, or otherwise, of this 'revolution for nothing' and the changing priorities of individuals as their levels of power increase from zero to monarch and how that may just be a limitation of civilisation).
- _carbyau_ 5y ago
  "A decentralised, trustless future perhaps?" I think we need a DNS-like service that simply hold small encrypted blobs, just big enough to contain an IPv6 address. When you "add" someone to your list of contacts, you are giving them the key to decrypt the blob that you update with your IP.(Complications ahoy here but this is the basic idea.) That way, people can message your phone/computer-of-choice direct with whatever E2E protocol you want. No middleman. Then you need an app layer built on that to manage messaging, video calls, group chats etc. But that app layer could be open and free. People often like some XML based protocol from the 2000s, but as long as it is secure - whatever.
  - GekkePrutser 5y ago
    There's so many issues with this. The biggest being the need to be online at the same time. But other issues: using it from multiple devices? Using it from different locations? Maybe it'll work with a tor hidden service or something because at least that stays the same (I think some chat apps already so that)
    - _carbyau_ 5y ago
perl4ever 5y ago
>If/when Signal becomes big enough to be used by a lot of people I think people (including the government) noticed it a long time ago. From 2015: 'According to CNN, "[t]he same technology that keeps a conversation private between you and a family member also gives a safe haven to a terrorist in Syria and the person in the United States he's trying to recruit to commit an act of mass murder."' https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Signal_(software) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Signal_(software)
- DarylZero 5y ago
  https://foreignpolicy.com/2021/03/13/telegram-signal-apps-right-wing-extremism-islamic-state-terrorism-violence-europol-encrypted/ https://foreignpolicy.com/2021/03/13/telegram-signal-apps-ri...

mukundesh 5y ago

Signal is developed by a non-profit and is open source, they have a higher chance of staying independent. With the cost of cloud services dropping hopefully there is less of the back-pressure to monetise

javajosh 5y ago
BTW I just learned that you can setup Amazon Smile to pay Signal - .5% of your purchases goes to them as a donation. https://smile.amazon.com/ch/82-4506840 https://smile.amazon.com/ch/82-4506840
SequoiaHope 5y ago
I’ve always assumed signal was a honeypot. They publish some source code but obviously we can’t verify the actual code running on iOS or (I assume) Android devices am I right? It seems like publishing open source could be a smoke screen. When they push code to devices they could link in alternate libraries that do whatever they want. They may even be able to push special code to targeted phones, avoiding detection by security researchers.
- indigo945 5y ago
  If this is your threat model, you can sideload the app instead of installing from the app store. This way, you can verify that you have the same app as everyone else and have not fallen victim to a supply chain attack. Ensuring you received an unmodified phone without a nefarious operating system or baseband is probably harder.
  - TaylorAlexander 5y ago
    > If this is your threat model, you can sideload the app instead of installing from the app store. Not on iOS.
- _abox 5y ago
  If they'd care to publish it on F-Droid they'd have reproducible builds. But alas they don't.
- hiq 5y ago
  > They publish some source code but obviously we can’t verify the actual code running on iOS or (I assume) Android devices am I right? No, they have reproducible builds. Everything else you said apply even more to other apps, not sure why you think Signal is more suspicious in that regard. But with reproducible builds and the .apk they have on their website, you can check that the source matches it every time you update, which is not something you can do with most other apps.
  - SequoiaHope 5y ago
    > they have reproducible builds. Ah, I see on Android they do. Not iOS according to an open github issue since 2015. I am suspicious of signal because everyone says "use Signal it is secure" and it is popularly known for this. Because of this reputation for security, users will get comfortable and talk about their illicit activity, which makes it an attractive target for power brokers the world over. Every app could have this problem, but Signal is the one everyone keeps saying is secure, so it's the place people will spill their secrets. Reproducible builds on android look cool, but I wonder if there are other threat models on Android than dishonest builds of the program itself.

BLKNSLVR 5y ago

A decentralised, trustless future perhaps? I'm semi-conspiratorial, semi-fatalistic about society's ability to change politics politically / non-technically. There are too many who are too apathetic (and I might even be one of them by already being semi-fatalistic) that anchor the current system in perpetuity. My conspiratorial side says this is by design, whilst my fatalistic side says it's human nature (essentially Hanlon's razor). Revolutionary change is often a case of "it" getting (a lot) worse before it gets better, but with the inevitability of returning to the previous status quo just with different bums on the same seats. (I've previously stated my desire to write a novel based on this concept in order to try and explore the inevitability, or otherwise, of this 'revolution for nothing' and the changing priorities of individuals as their levels of power increase from zero to monarch and how that may just be a limitation of civilisation).

_carbyau_ 5y ago
"A decentralised, trustless future perhaps?" I think we need a DNS-like service that simply hold small encrypted blobs, just big enough to contain an IPv6 address. When you "add" someone to your list of contacts, you are giving them the key to decrypt the blob that you update with your IP.(Complications ahoy here but this is the basic idea.) That way, people can message your phone/computer-of-choice direct with whatever E2E protocol you want. No middleman. Then you need an app layer built on that to manage messaging, video calls, group chats etc. But that app layer could be open and free. People often like some XML based protocol from the 2000s, but as long as it is secure - whatever.
- GekkePrutser 5y ago
  There's so many issues with this. The biggest being the need to be online at the same time. But other issues: using it from multiple devices? Using it from different locations? Maybe it'll work with a tor hidden service or something because at least that stays the same (I think some chat apps already so that)
  - _carbyau_ 5y ago

perl4ever 5y ago

>If/when Signal becomes big enough to be used by a lot of people I think people (including the government) noticed it a long time ago. From 2015: 'According to CNN, "[t]he same technology that keeps a conversation private between you and a family member also gives a safe haven to a terrorist in Syria and the person in the United States he's trying to recruit to commit an act of mass murder."' https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Signal_(software) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Signal_(software)

DarylZero 5y ago
https://foreignpolicy.com/2021/03/13/telegram-signal-apps-right-wing-extremism-islamic-state-terrorism-violence-europol-encrypted/ https://foreignpolicy.com/2021/03/13/telegram-signal-apps-ri...