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Old habits and mindsets never seem to change despite corporate pronouncements and PR puff pieces written by stenographers. The regulators (and legislators) are

Old habits and mindsets never seem to change despite corporate pronouncements and PR puff pieces written by stenographers. The regulators (and legislators) are either the biggest dupes, or much more likely in on it. Let’s not forget the FTC hookup for Netflix by Obama and the eventual payout when he left office. Or Ajit Pai who came from Verizon to run the FTC and undid the Obama era changes favorable to Netflix and inimical to Verizon. ——- I hardly see any of these events as triggers for the mass migration to apps like Signal. The network effects seem impregnable for now.

kingcharles 5y ago
Ajit also undid the new tariffs that were about to be implemented for jails and prisons to avoid some inmates paying $50 for a 15 minute call to their family. Fuck Ajit.
- snakeboy 5y ago
  I'm all for hating on Ajit, but from a cursory look at the prison case, the FCC just never really had the jurisdiction to regulate intrastate calls and repeatedly lost in court on that question. There was already a 50 cent cap on interstate calls under Pai, and this year under Rosenworcel it's been lowered to 14-21 cents[1]. Am I missing something? [0] https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2020/07/ajit-pai-urges-states-to-cap-prison-phone-rates-after-he-helped-kill-fcc-caps/ https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2020/07/ajit-pai-urges-s... [1] https://www.prisonlegalnews.org/news/2021/sep/1/fcc-takes-further-action-prison-and-jail-phone-rates/ https://www.prisonlegalnews.org/news/2021/sep/1/fcc-takes-fu...
  - themitigating 5y ago
    That he still probably did it to benefit one or more companies.
14 5y ago
Last I checked signal still needs a phone number so that is an issue. Lots of people use smartphones with no sim hooked up and wifi only. I was using wire for a bit but my 2 contacts were forced signed out and the password and password reset does not work only option is to start a new account and now they too were asking for a phone number. So onto something else I guess.
- GekkePrutser 5y ago
  You can have it seems a text to any number to verify so even a dumb mobile phone would work. Though I totally agree linking an IM account with a mobile number is bad. There's benefits too like discoverability and ease of use but I prefer something where I could be anonymous and have multiple accounts.
- humpydumpy 5y ago
  yes, signal requiring a phone number is the problem, and the only reason why I am not using it. In the last 10 years I have lived in 4 different countries, each time switching phone numbers. It is stupid to use such an unstable number as identity. My e-mail address has remained constant during the whole time. And I do like to have different addresses for different groups of people.
fnord123 5y ago
> The regulators (and legislators) are either the biggest dupes, or much more likely in on it. https://www.reuters.com/technology/irish-data-privacy-watchdog-fines-whatsapp-225-mln-euros-2021-09-02/ https://www.reuters.com/technology/irish-data-privacy-watchd...
no_wizard 5y ago
Do you have any links about the Netflix assertion here?
littlestymaar 5y ago
Earlier this year, when the change was announced and the media talked about it, I saw a ton of people starting to use signal (non-tech neighbours, my plumber, headhunters I still have in my contact list, etc). At this point I asked my mother to install it and to my surprise a lot of her friends where actually on Signal. It's still not the majority but at this point there is a significant user base for signal, much more than one year earlier.
- invalidname 5y ago
  Yes. But the whatsapp groups are impossible to move. I created the same group on signal. Nothing, two people move. Even in my office, a technocratic environment for sure... People won't move. We need a stronger motivator to move them or we need to make moving "seamless".
  - PennRobotics 5y ago
    I chuckled when our daycare had a lengthy discussion about data privacy and, twenty minutes later, asked every parent to join the WA group.
    - rakoo 5y ago
      I joined a few orgs fighting for a systemic change, understanding the decisions process and be a part of it, more collective life in support of all the discriminated people and a more ecological way of life. Left-leaning stuff. All the public communication happens on Facebook, Twitter and Instagram. Private comms are on whatever those platforms have, or Telegram and Discord. Only a minority have Signal and most don't want to hear about it. When I tell them there's an internal issue because you can't change the world and give more power to the people by using anti-users tools like those, they look at me like I'm from another planet. There's a long road ahead.
      - denton-scratch 5y ago
        Indymedia had a collection of global mailing lists, run using private mailservers with no logs, and a private (encrypted) IRC server (with a web interface, and also with no logs). Nearly everyone in Indymedia operated under a pseudonym. But over the course of the noughties, most activists moved over to Faceache. I never understood why activists would adopt pseudonyms, but refuse to use the (relatively) secure communication channels we provided, in favour of Twat and Faceache. Being involved with Indymedia was risky - it was infiltrated by undercover cops, and some of the people posting to the newswire were probably involved in criminal acts (e.g. criminal damage).
chiefalchemist 5y ago
I'm not familiar with thos two FTC snafus. A couple of links would be helpful and appreciated.
zaptheimpaler 5y ago
I sometimes wonder whether there is any purpose to it in the long term. If/when Signal becomes big enough to be used by a lot of people, they will want to monetize too and the governments will become interested in monitoring messages there too. It just feels futile. As long as companies need to turn a profit and governments can surreptitiously surveil their citizens there's no long-term solution. We can move to the next platform until that becomes popular (and hence worth monetizing and surveilling), then the next, repeat. Its a technical solution to a political problem.
- mukundesh 5y ago
  Signal is developed by a non-profit and is open source, they have a higher chance of staying independent. With the cost of cloud services dropping hopefully there is less of the back-pressure to monetise
  - javajosh 5y ago
    BTW I just learned that you can setup Amazon Smile to pay Signal - .5% of your purchases goes to them as a donation. https://smile.amazon.com/ch/82-4506840 https://smile.amazon.com/ch/82-4506840
  - SequoiaHope 5y ago
    I’ve always assumed signal was a honeypot. They publish some source code but obviously we can’t verify the actual code running on iOS or (I assume) Android devices am I right? It seems like publishing open source could be a smoke screen. When they push code to devices they could link in alternate libraries that do whatever they want. They may even be able to push special code to targeted phones, avoiding detection by security researchers.
    - indigo945 5y ago
      If this is your threat model, you can sideload the app instead of installing from the app store. This way, you can verify that you have the same app as everyone else and have not fallen victim to a supply chain attack. Ensuring you received an unmodified phone without a nefarious operating system or baseband is probably harder.

kingcharles 5y ago

Ajit also undid the new tariffs that were about to be implemented for jails and prisons to avoid some inmates paying $50 for a 15 minute call to their family. Fuck Ajit.

snakeboy 5y ago
I'm all for hating on Ajit, but from a cursory look at the prison case, the FCC just never really had the jurisdiction to regulate intrastate calls and repeatedly lost in court on that question. There was already a 50 cent cap on interstate calls under Pai, and this year under Rosenworcel it's been lowered to 14-21 cents[1]. Am I missing something? [0] https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2020/07/ajit-pai-urges-states-to-cap-prison-phone-rates-after-he-helped-kill-fcc-caps/ https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2020/07/ajit-pai-urges-s... [1] https://www.prisonlegalnews.org/news/2021/sep/1/fcc-takes-further-action-prison-and-jail-phone-rates/ https://www.prisonlegalnews.org/news/2021/sep/1/fcc-takes-fu...
- themitigating 5y ago
  That he still probably did it to benefit one or more companies.

14 5y ago

Last I checked signal still needs a phone number so that is an issue. Lots of people use smartphones with no sim hooked up and wifi only. I was using wire for a bit but my 2 contacts were forced signed out and the password and password reset does not work only option is to start a new account and now they too were asking for a phone number. So onto something else I guess.

GekkePrutser 5y ago
You can have it seems a text to any number to verify so even a dumb mobile phone would work. Though I totally agree linking an IM account with a mobile number is bad. There's benefits too like discoverability and ease of use but I prefer something where I could be anonymous and have multiple accounts.
humpydumpy 5y ago
yes, signal requiring a phone number is the problem, and the only reason why I am not using it. In the last 10 years I have lived in 4 different countries, each time switching phone numbers. It is stupid to use such an unstable number as identity. My e-mail address has remained constant during the whole time. And I do like to have different addresses for different groups of people.

fnord123 5y ago

> The regulators (and legislators) are either the biggest dupes, or much more likely in on it. https://www.reuters.com/technology/irish-data-privacy-watchdog-fines-whatsapp-225-mln-euros-2021-09-02/ https://www.reuters.com/technology/irish-data-privacy-watchd...

no_wizard 5y ago

Do you have any links about the Netflix assertion here?

littlestymaar 5y ago

Earlier this year, when the change was announced and the media talked about it, I saw a ton of people starting to use signal (non-tech neighbours, my plumber, headhunters I still have in my contact list, etc). At this point I asked my mother to install it and to my surprise a lot of her friends where actually on Signal. It's still not the majority but at this point there is a significant user base for signal, much more than one year earlier.

invalidname 5y ago
Yes. But the whatsapp groups are impossible to move. I created the same group on signal. Nothing, two people move. Even in my office, a technocratic environment for sure... People won't move. We need a stronger motivator to move them or we need to make moving "seamless".
- PennRobotics 5y ago
  I chuckled when our daycare had a lengthy discussion about data privacy and, twenty minutes later, asked every parent to join the WA group.
  - rakoo 5y ago
    I joined a few orgs fighting for a systemic change, understanding the decisions process and be a part of it, more collective life in support of all the discriminated people and a more ecological way of life. Left-leaning stuff. All the public communication happens on Facebook, Twitter and Instagram. Private comms are on whatever those platforms have, or Telegram and Discord. Only a minority have Signal and most don't want to hear about it. When I tell them there's an internal issue because you can't change the world and give more power to the people by using anti-users tools like those, they look at me like I'm from another planet. There's a long road ahead.
    - denton-scratch 5y ago
      Indymedia had a collection of global mailing lists, run using private mailservers with no logs, and a private (encrypted) IRC server (with a web interface, and also with no logs). Nearly everyone in Indymedia operated under a pseudonym. But over the course of the noughties, most activists moved over to Faceache. I never understood why activists would adopt pseudonyms, but refuse to use the (relatively) secure communication channels we provided, in favour of Twat and Faceache. Being involved with Indymedia was risky - it was infiltrated by undercover cops, and some of the people posting to the newswire were probably involved in criminal acts (e.g. criminal damage).

chiefalchemist 5y ago

I'm not familiar with thos two FTC snafus. A couple of links would be helpful and appreciated.

zaptheimpaler 5y ago

I sometimes wonder whether there is any purpose to it in the long term. If/when Signal becomes big enough to be used by a lot of people, they will want to monetize too and the governments will become interested in monitoring messages there too. It just feels futile. As long as companies need to turn a profit and governments can surreptitiously surveil their citizens there's no long-term solution. We can move to the next platform until that becomes popular (and hence worth monetizing and surveilling), then the next, repeat. Its a technical solution to a political problem.

mukundesh 5y ago
Signal is developed by a non-profit and is open source, they have a higher chance of staying independent. With the cost of cloud services dropping hopefully there is less of the back-pressure to monetise
- javajosh 5y ago
  BTW I just learned that you can setup Amazon Smile to pay Signal - .5% of your purchases goes to them as a donation. https://smile.amazon.com/ch/82-4506840 https://smile.amazon.com/ch/82-4506840
- SequoiaHope 5y ago
  I’ve always assumed signal was a honeypot. They publish some source code but obviously we can’t verify the actual code running on iOS or (I assume) Android devices am I right? It seems like publishing open source could be a smoke screen. When they push code to devices they could link in alternate libraries that do whatever they want. They may even be able to push special code to targeted phones, avoiding detection by security researchers.
  - indigo945 5y ago
    If this is your threat model, you can sideload the app instead of installing from the app store. This way, you can verify that you have the same app as everyone else and have not fallen victim to a supply chain attack. Ensuring you received an unmodified phone without a nefarious operating system or baseband is probably harder.