4 ms·

There are a surprisingly large number of changes since ~1900 that have had big environmental effects on "modern life" that we are barely getting to grips with -

There are a surprisingly large number of changes since ~1900 that have had big environmental effects on "modern life" that we are barely getting to grips with - this cold chain one is new to me but it fits in with electric lighting, urban noise and air pollution and even mass literacy etc as massive changes we can barely get to grips with I am deffo not arguing for some return to some paeleo, noble savage ideal. But our poor bodies evolved for something very different to eating burgers on a plane under flourescent lighting whilst reading text on a screen. Whatever we build as societies in the next 100'years, we should build at human scale.

number6 5y ago
Our bodys evolved to survive under harsh conditions until our offsprings are old enough to carry on (30 - 40 years) everything on top is bonus. Evolution and Biology have no agency. There is no moral, no right kind of living. If you procreate you fulfilled your biological "destiny". You can do that under eating a burger on a plane while reading on a screen. Evolution doesn't mind. Our bodys don't mind. Warrenty runs out in your thirties. Good thing we have brains that allow us to prolong our life's and increase our well-being.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- rp1 5y ago
  I don’t think the GP was arguing that “evolution cares”. Rather, I think they were saying that we evolved as part of a system that moved at a certain speed. Changes to that system were reflected as part of the evolutionary feedback mechanism. Now, however, we’re changing the system so fast, evolution has no hope of keeping up.
- enchiridion 5y ago
  Our brains were evolved.
- ricardobeat 5y ago
  Well, clearly something goes wrong as children also get these debilitating diseases.
  - bobthepanda 5y ago
    The decrease in life expectancy of Crohn's is -6 to -8 years compared to average, and in the Western world that's your 70s to 80s, so your fact doesn't necessarily conflict with their conclusion.
- thizzbuzz 5y ago
  > until our offsprings are old enough to carry on (30 - 40 years) I see this all the time. If you saw how pre-modern (extended) families actually function, you'd know that the survival of younger offspring is strongly influenced by what the 40+ year old members of the family are or aren't able to do.
- JohnJamesRambo 5y ago
  There is so much wrong with all these statements but I’ll start with this one. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grandmother_hypothesis https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grandmother_hypothesis
danachow 5y ago
Our bodies include our brains - the same ones that evolved for us to be social, develop language and then the technology and logistics to develop modern food production. This is all part of evolution.
vmception 5y ago
Yes but also so many people from 1920 are living to 100 years old Suggesting that so much of our health enlightenment is not useful compared to just better treatment Curious to see how it plays out
aaron695 5y ago
> air pollution Air pollution is far less now. If your point is it's better, then yes, else you are just "noble savage ideal" Refrigeration is amazing and like less air pollution it saves lives, but yes, we can refine it to save more lives because we are living in an amazing time of "burgers on a plane under flourescent lighting whilst reading text on a screen" On topic I don't understand with this theses why the Cold Chain Hypothesis matters. Test for the bacteria, stop dicking around talking about refrigeration. The Hypothesis is 20 years old, get to exactly why.
Terry_Roll 5y ago
With lab grown meat, you could go back to eating raw meat. Some folded proteins can cause problems when they get into cells, cooking folds proteins. The raw diet with dogs (huskies - siberian and malamute) has seen about 20% improvement in performance reportedly by their owners when discussing it with them.
- kibwen 5y ago
  I don't know why you'd want to go back to eating raw meat. The "our bodies didn't evolve for this" argument doesn't apply to cooked meat; human ancestors began cooking meat (among other things) between one to two million years ago.
  - Terry_Roll 5y ago
    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5551512/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5551512/ "We must not forget that immune or sensitive reactions to food can also depend on whether the food is raw or cooked. A food in its natural state can be vastly different from the same food that has been cooked, processed, or modified. The food can react with sugar, lipids can be oxidized, peptide chains can be broken, and neoantigens can be formed. Thus, an individual that can eat a raw food safely may be highly reactive to the same food if cooked, or vice versa." Our immune system attacks some of the food we eat. Enzymes in raw food are destroyed at 47degC. Enzymes can be good for us, everyone should be familiar with saliva. Changes over the years have also occurred with the food we eat today compared to just 20 years ago. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6410904/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6410904/ "As shown in Figure 3, energy and sodium intakes have increased significantly since the 1970s but have remained rather constant since the 1980s to 1990s. In contrast, saturated fat, either as grams per day or as a percentage of calories declined significantly from the late 1970s through the 2000s. Whereas calcium increased significantly since the 1970s, potassium intake was more variable, with intakes increasing in the 1980s and then declining somewhat in the 2000s. The intake of added sugars (for which information was available for only the 2000s because of database limitations) declined somewhat in the past few years compared with earlier years." https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8619086/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8619086/ "3. Relationship between Food Processing, Nutritional Value, and Health Effects The food manufacturing industry—as a whole—is driven primarily by the motive to increase profits, which requires minimizing costs across all stages of production; this is true regardless of whether it produces highly processed potato chips (a UPF) or extra virgin olive oil (a minimally processed food). In some cases, this may be achieved by the use of cheaper alternative food ingredients whenever possible and to the extent possible and, on some occasions, this practice can result in UPFs with unfavorable health effects. An example is the partial hydrogenation of vegetable oils (which are liquid at room temperature) to convert unsaturated fatty acids to saturated fatty acids and make these oils more solid or “spreadable”." https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3003575/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3003575/ It sounds bad, but this is the price of mass produced food, if however you have your own country estate perhaps in the highlands of Scotland or a farm elsewhere you can eat fresh and raw quite safely. They used to prescribe raw liver in the 1800's for pernicious anaemia which is today treated with a B12 injection. Raw liver is better than Bolivian marching powder or Red Bull for giving you wiings! Maybe you have tried it? ;-)

number6 5y ago

Our bodys evolved to survive under harsh conditions until our offsprings are old enough to carry on (30 - 40 years) everything on top is bonus. Evolution and Biology have no agency. There is no moral, no right kind of living. If you procreate you fulfilled your biological "destiny". You can do that under eating a burger on a plane while reading on a screen. Evolution doesn't mind. Our bodys don't mind. Warrenty runs out in your thirties. Good thing we have brains that allow us to prolong our life's and increase our well-being.

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
rp1 5y ago
I don’t think the GP was arguing that “evolution cares”. Rather, I think they were saying that we evolved as part of a system that moved at a certain speed. Changes to that system were reflected as part of the evolutionary feedback mechanism. Now, however, we’re changing the system so fast, evolution has no hope of keeping up.
enchiridion 5y ago
Our brains were evolved.
ricardobeat 5y ago
Well, clearly something goes wrong as children also get these debilitating diseases.
- bobthepanda 5y ago
  The decrease in life expectancy of Crohn's is -6 to -8 years compared to average, and in the Western world that's your 70s to 80s, so your fact doesn't necessarily conflict with their conclusion.
thizzbuzz 5y ago
> until our offsprings are old enough to carry on (30 - 40 years) I see this all the time. If you saw how pre-modern (extended) families actually function, you'd know that the survival of younger offspring is strongly influenced by what the 40+ year old members of the family are or aren't able to do.
JohnJamesRambo 5y ago
There is so much wrong with all these statements but I’ll start with this one. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grandmother_hypothesis https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grandmother_hypothesis

danachow 5y ago

Our bodies include our brains - the same ones that evolved for us to be social, develop language and then the technology and logistics to develop modern food production. This is all part of evolution.

vmception 5y ago

Yes but also so many people from 1920 are living to 100 years old Suggesting that so much of our health enlightenment is not useful compared to just better treatment Curious to see how it plays out

aaron695 5y ago

> air pollution Air pollution is far less now. If your point is it's better, then yes, else you are just "noble savage ideal" Refrigeration is amazing and like less air pollution it saves lives, but yes, we can refine it to save more lives because we are living in an amazing time of "burgers on a plane under flourescent lighting whilst reading text on a screen" On topic I don't understand with this theses why the Cold Chain Hypothesis matters. Test for the bacteria, stop dicking around talking about refrigeration. The Hypothesis is 20 years old, get to exactly why.

Terry_Roll 5y ago

With lab grown meat, you could go back to eating raw meat. Some folded proteins can cause problems when they get into cells, cooking folds proteins. The raw diet with dogs (huskies - siberian and malamute) has seen about 20% improvement in performance reportedly by their owners when discussing it with them.

kibwen 5y ago
I don't know why you'd want to go back to eating raw meat. The "our bodies didn't evolve for this" argument doesn't apply to cooked meat; human ancestors began cooking meat (among other things) between one to two million years ago.
- Terry_Roll 5y ago
  https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5551512/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5551512/ "We must not forget that immune or sensitive reactions to food can also depend on whether the food is raw or cooked. A food in its natural state can be vastly different from the same food that has been cooked, processed, or modified. The food can react with sugar, lipids can be oxidized, peptide chains can be broken, and neoantigens can be formed. Thus, an individual that can eat a raw food safely may be highly reactive to the same food if cooked, or vice versa." Our immune system attacks some of the food we eat. Enzymes in raw food are destroyed at 47degC. Enzymes can be good for us, everyone should be familiar with saliva. Changes over the years have also occurred with the food we eat today compared to just 20 years ago. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6410904/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6410904/ "As shown in Figure 3, energy and sodium intakes have increased significantly since the 1970s but have remained rather constant since the 1980s to 1990s. In contrast, saturated fat, either as grams per day or as a percentage of calories declined significantly from the late 1970s through the 2000s. Whereas calcium increased significantly since the 1970s, potassium intake was more variable, with intakes increasing in the 1980s and then declining somewhat in the 2000s. The intake of added sugars (for which information was available for only the 2000s because of database limitations) declined somewhat in the past few years compared with earlier years." https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8619086/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8619086/ "3. Relationship between Food Processing, Nutritional Value, and Health Effects The food manufacturing industry—as a whole—is driven primarily by the motive to increase profits, which requires minimizing costs across all stages of production; this is true regardless of whether it produces highly processed potato chips (a UPF) or extra virgin olive oil (a minimally processed food). In some cases, this may be achieved by the use of cheaper alternative food ingredients whenever possible and to the extent possible and, on some occasions, this practice can result in UPFs with unfavorable health effects. An example is the partial hydrogenation of vegetable oils (which are liquid at room temperature) to convert unsaturated fatty acids to saturated fatty acids and make these oils more solid or “spreadable”." https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3003575/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3003575/ It sounds bad, but this is the price of mass produced food, if however you have your own country estate perhaps in the highlands of Scotland or a farm elsewhere you can eat fresh and raw quite safely. They used to prescribe raw liver in the 1800's for pernicious anaemia which is today treated with a B12 injection. Raw liver is better than Bolivian marching powder or Red Bull for giving you wiings! Maybe you have tried it? ;-)