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Beyond the fraud allegations, the idea that an organisation can just print extra money as they see fit, doesn’t that go against the principles of crypto finance

Beyond the fraud allegations, the idea that an organisation can just print extra money as they see fit, doesn’t that go against the principles of crypto finance? I am genuinely curious why people think that is a sustainable idea.

aaronax 5y ago
What are the principles of crypto finance? Who thinks Tether is sustainable? Tether is just someone with digital Monopoly (game) money basically.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
javert 5y ago
Bitcoin is principled. Crypto is not principled.
- beaconstudios 5y ago
  Bitcoin is also not principled. Plenty of people are just speculating and trying to not be the bagholder.
  - javert 5y ago
    You can't keep traders from trading bitcoin. That doesn't mean bitcoin is unprincipled. It's in the whitepaper and the design of bitcoin. For example, the 21M btc supply limit. Bitcoin's design reflects a certain ideology about money.
    - threepio 5y ago
      Bitcoin: by limiting issuance to 21M we have made price manipulation of our currency impossible Tether: hold my beer
      - gruez 5y ago
        >Bitcoin: by limiting issuance to 21M we have made price manipulation of our currency impossible At what point did people claim that "price manipulation of [bitcoin]" was "impossible"? I think you're mistaking "price manipulation" with "dilution" (eg. quantitative easing or debasing).
        astrange 5y ago
        Dilution is still possible either by forking it (and having normal non-Austrians accept the new one) or by starting lending programs (since banks create money by lending it.)
    - beaconstudios 5y ago
      Technologies don't have principles, people who use them have principles; the people who buy and sell bitcoin are mostly the same as the other cryptocoins. Satoshi intended certain principles with the creation of bitcoin, but these are not the predominant driver of its use in actuality.
      - javert 5y ago
        Bitcoin really is defined by its principles. A fork that violates its principles (say, changing the 21M cap or violating the transaction history which hashes back to the genesis block) wouldn't be bitcoin, just like no amount of people believing the earth is flat would make it flat.
        beaconstudios 5y ago
        so by "principled" you just mean "has algorithmic constraints?" that's not what most people mean by principled. Also, in that sense, crypto also has principles in that most altcoins are built on ethereum, which also has algorithmic constraints.
        javert 5y ago
        Bitcoin has principles the way most people mean the term. Ethereum does not. I've already given examples that make it clear. Ethereum's algorithmic constraints are merely algorithmic constraints that can be changed easily, whereas bitcoin's key algorithmic constraints also are actually principles; changing them results in a non-bitcoin fork.
tinco 5y ago
The principles of crypto finance? Cryptocurrencies are not built on principles, they are built on technologies. The only unifying principle across all cryptocurrencies that I've noticed is that you access your assets through a cryptographic hash. You could launch USD+SEPA+your banks online banking interface today and call it a cryptocurrency, it's as much a cryptocurrency as for example Ripple is. edit: ok the other "principle" might be that all (most?) cryptocurrencies are independent from government, they are owned and managed by individuals, companies and groups of people/devices (if you're lucky).
- throwoutway 5y ago
  The Ethereum Classic chain would disagree. I get your point though, but the original bitcoin paper isn’t apolitical. It was very principled
Oberbaumbrucke 5y ago
Few understand this
gruez 5y ago
>Beyond the fraud allegations, the idea that an organisation can just print extra money as they see fit, doesn’t that go against the principles of crypto finance? or maybe the crypto community isn't a monolith, and all the cryptoanarchists aren't the people who hold/support tether?
- rchaud 5y ago
  They might not be a monolith, but I've yet to see participants advocating for Tether to show audited financials like anybody else in their position would be obliged to. They appear to all be playing by the rules Tether is setting.
  - gruez 5y ago
    >but I've yet to see participants advocating for Tether to show audited financials like anybody else in their position would be obliged to. What makes you sure that at least some of the "tether is a scam (or is at least shady)" people aren't also crypto "participants"? >They appear to all be playing by the rules Tether is setting. Or maybe they're voting with their feet and moving to an exchange that doesn't deal in USDT, and so won't be subject to tether's rules?
    - rchaud 5y ago
      > What makes you sure that at least some of the "tether is a scam (or is at least shady)" people aren't also crypto "participants"? I imagine there are many people that believe in crypto and participate in the markets, but dislike that Tether is behaving like the fiat central bankers they abhor so much. > Or maybe they're voting with their feet and moving to an exchange that doesn't deal in USDT, and so won't be subject to tether's rules? Unbacked Tether inflates the price of any coin that it's used to purchase, so what you're describing would have no effect. When Tether's $1bn pump pushes up BTC's price from it's 20% overnight decline, are the theoretical USDT-free exchanges going to reflect bid/ask prices as they were pre-pump? Of course not.
wmf 5y ago
Tether claims that they are not printing money. Whether they follow their own rules is disputed, but there are rules.
- pornel 5y ago
  "Trust us". That's super decentralized and trustless.
dathinab 5y ago
> principles of crypto finance There isn't really such a think. There are many crypto currencies with different goals and approaches to handling market dynamics. And there are some where doing such a think is fully against there principles and would brake their marked dynamics. But not necessary for other reasons. But this also means you need to look at the specific crypto system in question to decide why it might or might not work. I don't know much about Tether specifically, but lets say you have a new arbitrary crypto currency you try to make price stable, but like many crypto currencies it end up having deflationary tendencies (more demand, money getting "locked" in, etc.). In which case minting new coins would not only be sustainable but likely necessary.

aaronax 5y ago

What are the principles of crypto finance? Who thinks Tether is sustainable? Tether is just someone with digital Monopoly (game) money basically.

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

javert 5y ago

Bitcoin is principled. Crypto is not principled.

beaconstudios 5y ago
Bitcoin is also not principled. Plenty of people are just speculating and trying to not be the bagholder.
- javert 5y ago
  You can't keep traders from trading bitcoin. That doesn't mean bitcoin is unprincipled. It's in the whitepaper and the design of bitcoin. For example, the 21M btc supply limit. Bitcoin's design reflects a certain ideology about money.
  - threepio 5y ago
    Bitcoin: by limiting issuance to 21M we have made price manipulation of our currency impossible Tether: hold my beer
    - gruez 5y ago
      >Bitcoin: by limiting issuance to 21M we have made price manipulation of our currency impossible At what point did people claim that "price manipulation of [bitcoin]" was "impossible"? I think you're mistaking "price manipulation" with "dilution" (eg. quantitative easing or debasing).
      - astrange 5y ago
        Dilution is still possible either by forking it (and having normal non-Austrians accept the new one) or by starting lending programs (since banks create money by lending it.)
  - beaconstudios 5y ago
    Technologies don't have principles, people who use them have principles; the people who buy and sell bitcoin are mostly the same as the other cryptocoins. Satoshi intended certain principles with the creation of bitcoin, but these are not the predominant driver of its use in actuality.
    - javert 5y ago
      Bitcoin really is defined by its principles. A fork that violates its principles (say, changing the 21M cap or violating the transaction history which hashes back to the genesis block) wouldn't be bitcoin, just like no amount of people believing the earth is flat would make it flat.
      - beaconstudios 5y ago
        so by "principled" you just mean "has algorithmic constraints?" that's not what most people mean by principled. Also, in that sense, crypto also has principles in that most altcoins are built on ethereum, which also has algorithmic constraints.
        javert 5y ago
        Bitcoin has principles the way most people mean the term. Ethereum does not. I've already given examples that make it clear. Ethereum's algorithmic constraints are merely algorithmic constraints that can be changed easily, whereas bitcoin's key algorithmic constraints also are actually principles; changing them results in a non-bitcoin fork.

tinco 5y ago

The principles of crypto finance? Cryptocurrencies are not built on principles, they are built on technologies. The only unifying principle across all cryptocurrencies that I've noticed is that you access your assets through a cryptographic hash. You could launch USD+SEPA+your banks online banking interface today and call it a cryptocurrency, it's as much a cryptocurrency as for example Ripple is. edit: ok the other "principle" might be that all (most?) cryptocurrencies are independent from government, they are owned and managed by individuals, companies and groups of people/devices (if you're lucky).

throwoutway 5y ago
The Ethereum Classic chain would disagree. I get your point though, but the original bitcoin paper isn’t apolitical. It was very principled

Oberbaumbrucke 5y ago

Few understand this

gruez 5y ago

>Beyond the fraud allegations, the idea that an organisation can just print extra money as they see fit, doesn’t that go against the principles of crypto finance? or maybe the crypto community isn't a monolith, and all the cryptoanarchists aren't the people who hold/support tether?

rchaud 5y ago
They might not be a monolith, but I've yet to see participants advocating for Tether to show audited financials like anybody else in their position would be obliged to. They appear to all be playing by the rules Tether is setting.
- gruez 5y ago
  >but I've yet to see participants advocating for Tether to show audited financials like anybody else in their position would be obliged to. What makes you sure that at least some of the "tether is a scam (or is at least shady)" people aren't also crypto "participants"? >They appear to all be playing by the rules Tether is setting. Or maybe they're voting with their feet and moving to an exchange that doesn't deal in USDT, and so won't be subject to tether's rules?
  - rchaud 5y ago
    > What makes you sure that at least some of the "tether is a scam (or is at least shady)" people aren't also crypto "participants"? I imagine there are many people that believe in crypto and participate in the markets, but dislike that Tether is behaving like the fiat central bankers they abhor so much. > Or maybe they're voting with their feet and moving to an exchange that doesn't deal in USDT, and so won't be subject to tether's rules? Unbacked Tether inflates the price of any coin that it's used to purchase, so what you're describing would have no effect. When Tether's $1bn pump pushes up BTC's price from it's 20% overnight decline, are the theoretical USDT-free exchanges going to reflect bid/ask prices as they were pre-pump? Of course not.

wmf 5y ago

Tether claims that they are not printing money. Whether they follow their own rules is disputed, but there are rules.

pornel 5y ago
"Trust us". That's super decentralized and trustless.

dathinab 5y ago

> principles of crypto finance There isn't really such a think. There are many crypto currencies with different goals and approaches to handling market dynamics. And there are some where doing such a think is fully against there principles and would brake their marked dynamics. But not necessary for other reasons. But this also means you need to look at the specific crypto system in question to decide why it might or might not work. I don't know much about Tether specifically, but lets say you have a new arbitrary crypto currency you try to make price stable, but like many crypto currencies it end up having deflationary tendencies (more demand, money getting "locked" in, etc.). In which case minting new coins would not only be sustainable but likely necessary.