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> People move across borders when they need to. Both Hungary and Poland have shown that a modern state can largely prevent illegal crossing of its borders. We

by blfr 5y ago

> People move across borders when they need to. Both Hungary and Poland have shown that a modern state can largely prevent illegal crossing of its borders. We have the technology. It's not that difficult. Even easier when you have a sea acting as a barrier. When the migration happens on a massive scale regardless, it's usually with tacit or explicit establishment's approval.

rebuilder 5y ago
This is a temporary situation with relatively few people involved. Counterexample: the US - Mexico border. Keeping an airtight border is a very expensive task. You can probably be harder to get into than the next country, but in the context of the EU, that's not really a solution, it's just a way to make the problem worse.
- KptMarchewa 5y ago
  The goal is not to have 100% foolproof solution, but one that makes it not worth a try.
  - rebuilder 5y ago
    People are willing to risk their children drowning in the Mediterranean in order to get into the EU. How much worse can we make it?
    - KptMarchewa 5y ago
      They only do that because they believe they can succeed. Widespread propaganda could resolve that.
abrowne 5y ago
But Hungary and Poland aren't a destination goal for the vast majority of migrants, so they only have to make the route through their countries worse or harder than alternative routes. That's not comparable to the EU as a whole.
zerr 5y ago
Actually, seeking an asylum is perfectly legal. What those border countries are doing is illegal.
- f6v 5y ago
  Also, seems like the values changed drastically after 2015. I was told it was our moral obligation to help the refugees. Now it’s 180 degree turn. Makes you think helping people wasn’t really a value in the first place, since those can’t change so radically.
  - native_samples 5y ago
    The EU as an institution/trans-national government has virtually no identifiable values beyond self-expansion and consolidation of power. All other claimed values disappear the moment they come into conflict with those other two. Consider human rights. The ECJ loves to overrule government decisions on migration/asylum on the grounds of human rights, they do it all the time. The inability to deport Islamic "hate preachers" was one of the contributing factors in the Brexit campaign, in fact. Yet the moment Austria placed a large fraction of its own population under indefinite house arrest without trial, in violation of the Nurenberg Code no less, the EU was mysteriously silent. Or how about the rule of law. When eastern European countries were electing conservative politicians the EU couldn't shut up about how the "rule of law" was being violated, though they never quite explained how. Then Latvia's parliament banned unvaccinated MPs from voting, violating the most basic rule a democracy has and at a stroke disenfranchising whole chunks of their population. Once again, the EU couldn't find anything to say about this. I rest this case with a few quotes from Jean-Claude Juncker, former head of the EU Commission. He said these things whilst running the EU's most powerful body: "We decide on something, leave it lying around, and wait and see what happens. If no one kicks up a fuss, because most people don't understand what has been decided, we continue step by step until there is no turning back." "When the going gets tough, you have to lie." "I'm ready to be insulted as being insufficiently democratic, but I want to be serious ... I am for secret, dark debates" "I believe neither the French nor the Dutch really rejected the constitutional treaty." (they did, of course) In the end the, the EU does have values but those values are not the sort of values they're willing to publicly advertise.
Krasnol 5y ago
Funny because Poland and Hungary are the best examples for what's wrong with the structure of the EU. They have severe broken democracies and drift even further off. No refugee would want to stay there. Not only for economical but also for social reasons. Those countries are and should never be a good example for EU policy.

by blfr 5y ago

rebuilder 5y ago

This is a temporary situation with relatively few people involved. Counterexample: the US - Mexico border. Keeping an airtight border is a very expensive task. You can probably be harder to get into than the next country, but in the context of the EU, that's not really a solution, it's just a way to make the problem worse.

KptMarchewa 5y ago
The goal is not to have 100% foolproof solution, but one that makes it not worth a try.
- rebuilder 5y ago
  People are willing to risk their children drowning in the Mediterranean in order to get into the EU. How much worse can we make it?
  - KptMarchewa 5y ago
    They only do that because they believe they can succeed. Widespread propaganda could resolve that.

abrowne 5y ago

But Hungary and Poland aren't a destination goal for the vast majority of migrants, so they only have to make the route through their countries worse or harder than alternative routes. That's not comparable to the EU as a whole.

zerr 5y ago

Actually, seeking an asylum is perfectly legal. What those border countries are doing is illegal.

f6v 5y ago
Also, seems like the values changed drastically after 2015. I was told it was our moral obligation to help the refugees. Now it’s 180 degree turn. Makes you think helping people wasn’t really a value in the first place, since those can’t change so radically.
- native_samples 5y ago
  The EU as an institution/trans-national government has virtually no identifiable values beyond self-expansion and consolidation of power. All other claimed values disappear the moment they come into conflict with those other two. Consider human rights. The ECJ loves to overrule government decisions on migration/asylum on the grounds of human rights, they do it all the time. The inability to deport Islamic "hate preachers" was one of the contributing factors in the Brexit campaign, in fact. Yet the moment Austria placed a large fraction of its own population under indefinite house arrest without trial, in violation of the Nurenberg Code no less, the EU was mysteriously silent. Or how about the rule of law. When eastern European countries were electing conservative politicians the EU couldn't shut up about how the "rule of law" was being violated, though they never quite explained how. Then Latvia's parliament banned unvaccinated MPs from voting, violating the most basic rule a democracy has and at a stroke disenfranchising whole chunks of their population. Once again, the EU couldn't find anything to say about this. I rest this case with a few quotes from Jean-Claude Juncker, former head of the EU Commission. He said these things whilst running the EU's most powerful body: "We decide on something, leave it lying around, and wait and see what happens. If no one kicks up a fuss, because most people don't understand what has been decided, we continue step by step until there is no turning back." "When the going gets tough, you have to lie." "I'm ready to be insulted as being insufficiently democratic, but I want to be serious ... I am for secret, dark debates" "I believe neither the French nor the Dutch really rejected the constitutional treaty." (they did, of course) In the end the, the EU does have values but those values are not the sort of values they're willing to publicly advertise.

Krasnol 5y ago

Funny because Poland and Hungary are the best examples for what's wrong with the structure of the EU. They have severe broken democracies and drift even further off. No refugee would want to stay there. Not only for economical but also for social reasons. Those countries are and should never be a good example for EU policy.