4 ms·

A detailed rebuttal to Krahe is presented by Wasson, p129. Note that you are basing your argument on Greek, but this is a preGreek term. https://books.google.

A detailed rebuttal to Krahe is presented by Wasson, p129. Note that you are basing your argument on Greek, but this is a preGreek term. https://books.google.com/books/about/The_Road_to_Eleusis.html?id=lZXpO_3szpsC https://books.google.com/books/about/The_Road_to_Eleusis.htm...

adrian_b 5y ago
Thanks for the link. I have found online a fragment of Wasson, but unfortunately the fragment stops before page 129, so I could not see the rebuttal, only a mention by Wasson that some colleague derided him for believing that there is a connection between the name Mycenae and mushrooms. Wasson might be right about the use of mushrooms at the Greek mysteries, but that has nothing to do with the name of the city Mycenae. We know that the female name from which Mycenae is derived has been in use, e.g. in the Odyssey some nymph with this name is mentioned. It does not make much sense for a woman's name to refer to mushrooms. Assuming that you are right and the woman/city name is pre-Greek, then that removes any connection with the Greek name of the mushroom, which is likely to be Indo-European, derived from the same word with the Latin "mucus".
- dr_dshiv 5y ago
  Here is Wasson’s argument. The idea that it is preGreek comes from this etymology website. https://etymology_el_en.en-academic.com/6991/%CE%9C%CF%85%CC%86%CE%BA%E1%BF%86%CE%BD%CE%B1%CE%B9 https://etymology_el_en.en-academic.com/6991/%CE%9C%CF%85%CC... “The etymology of Mykenai from mykes, although frequently proposed, was rejected by Krahe (Gnomon 17, 1945, 472). There seems, however, no reason why the city's name is not correctly associated with mykes. The declensional stem of mykes alternates between myket- (third declension) and myke- (first declension); the lack of -t-in Mykenai is therefore not significant. For a city related to a plant, cf. Mekone from the opium poppy mekon. Mykenai, furthermore, is a feminine plural, like Thebes (Thebai) and Athens (Athenai); as in the names of those cities, Mykenai derived from the nymph of the place, Mykene (Homer, Odyssey 2. 120; Hesiod, frg. 246, Merkelbach and West; etc.), the primordial bride whose descent into death there established, or continually re-established, the compact with the chthonic realm upon which union. the living city could be founded. There was also a tradition about an eponymous male founder, Mykeneus, whose father was Sparton, the 'sown man,' apparently an autochthonous inhabitant like the Spartoe at Thebes growing from the land (Acusilaus, frg. 16, Jacoby Eustathius on Homer, Iliad 2. 569 p. 289. 47; cf. scholia to Euripides, Orestes 1239). It is formulaic in foundation myths for the narrative to show a pattern of mediation between two versions of origin, autochthony and in migration; the autochthonous inhabitant quite naturally displays botanic characteristics and the mediation between opposite claimants to the place is effected via the sacred marriage. The name of the city Mykenai, therefore, would suggest that the mykes figured in Mycenaean religion. There was a tradition that at the neighboring city of Corinth, the original inhabitants were mushrooms that Sisyphus converted into men (Ovid, Metamorphoses 7.392-3; cf. Apollodorus 1. 9. 3).”
  - adrian_b 5y ago
    Thanks. However I do not see here any convincing argument here. While it is true that there was an alternative stem mukaa- for mukaat- (though attested only in the plural), deriving a female name as Mukaanaa from mukaa- is not a normal derivation in Greek. In my opinion, the most likely is that the woman name Mukaanaa and the city name Mukaanai were indeed pre-Greek, so of completely unknown meaning. A millennium later, the Greeks did not know more than us about what Mycenae might mean, so, as it always happens in such cases, they also thought about fanciful etymologies of the word, e.g. that it might be related to mushrooms, and they introduced such elements in their legends.

adrian_b 5y ago

Thanks for the link. I have found online a fragment of Wasson, but unfortunately the fragment stops before page 129, so I could not see the rebuttal, only a mention by Wasson that some colleague derided him for believing that there is a connection between the name Mycenae and mushrooms. Wasson might be right about the use of mushrooms at the Greek mysteries, but that has nothing to do with the name of the city Mycenae. We know that the female name from which Mycenae is derived has been in use, e.g. in the Odyssey some nymph with this name is mentioned. It does not make much sense for a woman's name to refer to mushrooms. Assuming that you are right and the woman/city name is pre-Greek, then that removes any connection with the Greek name of the mushroom, which is likely to be Indo-European, derived from the same word with the Latin "mucus".

dr_dshiv 5y ago
Here is Wasson’s argument. The idea that it is preGreek comes from this etymology website. https://etymology_el_en.en-academic.com/6991/%CE%9C%CF%85%CC%86%CE%BA%E1%BF%86%CE%BD%CE%B1%CE%B9 https://etymology_el_en.en-academic.com/6991/%CE%9C%CF%85%CC... “The etymology of Mykenai from mykes, although frequently proposed, was rejected by Krahe (Gnomon 17, 1945, 472). There seems, however, no reason why the city's name is not correctly associated with mykes. The declensional stem of mykes alternates between myket- (third declension) and myke- (first declension); the lack of -t-in Mykenai is therefore not significant. For a city related to a plant, cf. Mekone from the opium poppy mekon. Mykenai, furthermore, is a feminine plural, like Thebes (Thebai) and Athens (Athenai); as in the names of those cities, Mykenai derived from the nymph of the place, Mykene (Homer, Odyssey 2. 120; Hesiod, frg. 246, Merkelbach and West; etc.), the primordial bride whose descent into death there established, or continually re-established, the compact with the chthonic realm upon which union. the living city could be founded. There was also a tradition about an eponymous male founder, Mykeneus, whose father was Sparton, the 'sown man,' apparently an autochthonous inhabitant like the Spartoe at Thebes growing from the land (Acusilaus, frg. 16, Jacoby Eustathius on Homer, Iliad 2. 569 p. 289. 47; cf. scholia to Euripides, Orestes 1239). It is formulaic in foundation myths for the narrative to show a pattern of mediation between two versions of origin, autochthony and in migration; the autochthonous inhabitant quite naturally displays botanic characteristics and the mediation between opposite claimants to the place is effected via the sacred marriage. The name of the city Mykenai, therefore, would suggest that the mykes figured in Mycenaean religion. There was a tradition that at the neighboring city of Corinth, the original inhabitants were mushrooms that Sisyphus converted into men (Ovid, Metamorphoses 7.392-3; cf. Apollodorus 1. 9. 3).”
- adrian_b 5y ago
  Thanks. However I do not see here any convincing argument here. While it is true that there was an alternative stem mukaa- for mukaat- (though attested only in the plural), deriving a female name as Mukaanaa from mukaa- is not a normal derivation in Greek. In my opinion, the most likely is that the woman name Mukaanaa and the city name Mukaanai were indeed pre-Greek, so of completely unknown meaning. A millennium later, the Greeks did not know more than us about what Mycenae might mean, so, as it always happens in such cases, they also thought about fanciful etymologies of the word, e.g. that it might be related to mushrooms, and they introduced such elements in their legends.