5 ms·

It's good for the hard working to be rewarded, I don't think anyone except the most extreme would disagree with that, including most leftists. The problem in th

It's good for the hard working to be rewarded, I don't think anyone except the most extreme would disagree with that, including most leftists. The problem in the USA is that black people started out as slaves and this massive social oppression was never balanced out; famously the "thirty acres and a mule" reparations never materialised. As such black people largely remain a separate economic class due explicitly to government policy. The idea of equity as I understand it is to try to emulate or create an actual level playing field, where equality of opportunity is just pretending that race neutral policy creates an even playing field on its own. The whole "calling people racist for not advocating for equity" thing is ridiculous I agree; I think only a noisy subset of "woke scolds" actually do this. The actual idea is that institutions that ignore the reality of race in America are perpetuating those conditions, and thus are "institutionally racist", but that doesn't mean that the people in that institution are racist; it just means they're not anti-racist, which means they are basically just neutral/ambivalent/unaware. The postmodern left has a lot of pretty bad behaviour in the public eye, but the underlying theory is sound.

dude187 5y ago
> The problem in the USA is that black people started out as slaves and this massive social oppression was never balanced out That's not due to lack of opportunity, despite what the race peddlers insist is the only possibility. Plenty of discriminated immigrant groups have surpassed your average White household wealth in a matter of a couple generations. The problem is largely behavioral, but any discussions of the topic are typically controlled by people that don't let that be an acceptable angle to look at.
- beaconstudios 5y ago
  OK then, let's look at that. If you're an ambitious person and your entire neighbourhood and everyone you've ever known is poverty-stricken, there are no jobs in your area, and the only thing akin to a route out of poverty is the drug trade, what are you gonna do? Even if you don't want to be involved, gangs may forcibly recruit you at a young age. The problem perpetuates itself as gangs mean no new business will move into the area for fear of being robbed or extorted. Immigrants moving from other countries are not necessarily stuck in the mindset that comes from poverty and crime. This isn't a uniquely racial thing either; here in the UK we have a near identical problem (minus gun violence) with young poor majority-white men, called chavs. Poverty and lack of opportunity drives crime, and crime tends to perpetuate the same problems that caused it. Thus, the systems-theory aspect of critical theory, which is the complex part I was talking about previously.
  - dude187 5y ago
    You've basically stumbled upon the anti-CRT point that I've been trying to make. Race is not the hinge factor, but demanding that we make it one is a form of racism.
    - beaconstudios 5y ago
      No, that's not the point at all. The point is that explicitly race based policy started a self perpetuating poverty trap, and explicitly anti-racist policy is required to collectively get black people out of it. Because it's self perptuating. I'd love to know how you think racial equality will be achieved in the US though. Be warned, I am expecting the "personal responsibility" argument and am more than ready to debunk it.
      - dude187 5y ago
        > No, that's not the point at all. It absolutely is. > explicitly anti-racist policy is required to collectively get black people out of it. That's racist. There's White people caught in that same trap. Ignoring them doesn't help anybody, it just codifies racism. > I'd love to know how you think racial equality will be achieved in the US though. Personal responsibility is an insufficient summary, but definitely a main thread of what the community needs to do.
        beaconstudios 5y ago
        There are white people caught in the same trap, yes, and I think they should be helped too. But that's "socialism" in the US. The difference between those cases is that black people were placed into a poverty trap as a result of explicitly racist government policy, and are owed reparations to make amends; yknow, restorative justice and all that. > Personal responsibility is an insufficient summary, but definitely a main thread of what the community needs to do. I'd love to know how they're supposed to solve their own poverty, I've no doubt you have a comprehensive plan designed to systematically alleviate such a challenging and destructive social condition.
sershe 5y ago
I think a big problem is that it's typically not given as an alternative. You're either us or them... which makes sense, otherwise the wedge wouldn't work. However, I also don't think that to the extent that it is true, this theory correctly identifies the biggest problem. For example, for all the abstract faulting of race-blind institutions in New Jim Crow, most of the actual examples it gives (poll tests, housing segregation, where to enforce the law against drugs/deals, sentencing disparity, etc.) follow the same formula - government power + personal discretion. I.e. good ol' racism that is given the power that can be applied selectively. I think that is a much, much bigger problem than the classist institutions that propagate the resulting racial disparities. If the former issue was resolved by (1) not creating opportunities for it (2) creating compensatory policies like affirmative action/etc.; classist institutions would stop being race-correlated over time.
- beaconstudios 5y ago
  There's certainly room for that argument - I think the problem is that as it stands right now, the divide is too great to overcome without active intervention because the outcomes of white and black people are bifurcated. Thus, a large effort will need to be undertaken if the races are to reach opportunity parity. I think that the two solutions you posited, reducing the opportunity for active discrimination and providing affirmative action opportunities, are a big help - however some institutional reforms are also necessary, including (in my humble, foreign opinion) government investment in predominantly black schools and enterprises, and ending the drug war which disproportionately affects both the poor, and minorities. Once parity is reached I think these resources could be allocated on a purely economic basis, but until then I think that the US government has a moral obligation to resolve the problems that it created.
  - sershe 5y ago
    Well, those policies do both fall in the same framework. Ending war on drugs is basically removing government power that can be, and is, abused in a racist way. Licensing is another one btw (many occupations require licensing => licenses are not given to felons => drug "crimes" are felonies => boom). Investing in black schools and enterprises is broadly similar to affirmative action in that they are biases that compensate for prior opposite biases. Both are compatible with overall meritocracy and classism...

dude187 5y ago

> The problem in the USA is that black people started out as slaves and this massive social oppression was never balanced out That's not due to lack of opportunity, despite what the race peddlers insist is the only possibility. Plenty of discriminated immigrant groups have surpassed your average White household wealth in a matter of a couple generations. The problem is largely behavioral, but any discussions of the topic are typically controlled by people that don't let that be an acceptable angle to look at.

beaconstudios 5y ago
OK then, let's look at that. If you're an ambitious person and your entire neighbourhood and everyone you've ever known is poverty-stricken, there are no jobs in your area, and the only thing akin to a route out of poverty is the drug trade, what are you gonna do? Even if you don't want to be involved, gangs may forcibly recruit you at a young age. The problem perpetuates itself as gangs mean no new business will move into the area for fear of being robbed or extorted. Immigrants moving from other countries are not necessarily stuck in the mindset that comes from poverty and crime. This isn't a uniquely racial thing either; here in the UK we have a near identical problem (minus gun violence) with young poor majority-white men, called chavs. Poverty and lack of opportunity drives crime, and crime tends to perpetuate the same problems that caused it. Thus, the systems-theory aspect of critical theory, which is the complex part I was talking about previously.
- dude187 5y ago
  You've basically stumbled upon the anti-CRT point that I've been trying to make. Race is not the hinge factor, but demanding that we make it one is a form of racism.
  - beaconstudios 5y ago
    No, that's not the point at all. The point is that explicitly race based policy started a self perpetuating poverty trap, and explicitly anti-racist policy is required to collectively get black people out of it. Because it's self perptuating. I'd love to know how you think racial equality will be achieved in the US though. Be warned, I am expecting the "personal responsibility" argument and am more than ready to debunk it.
    - dude187 5y ago
      > No, that's not the point at all. It absolutely is. > explicitly anti-racist policy is required to collectively get black people out of it. That's racist. There's White people caught in that same trap. Ignoring them doesn't help anybody, it just codifies racism. > I'd love to know how you think racial equality will be achieved in the US though. Personal responsibility is an insufficient summary, but definitely a main thread of what the community needs to do.
      - beaconstudios 5y ago
        There are white people caught in the same trap, yes, and I think they should be helped too. But that's "socialism" in the US. The difference between those cases is that black people were placed into a poverty trap as a result of explicitly racist government policy, and are owed reparations to make amends; yknow, restorative justice and all that. > Personal responsibility is an insufficient summary, but definitely a main thread of what the community needs to do. I'd love to know how they're supposed to solve their own poverty, I've no doubt you have a comprehensive plan designed to systematically alleviate such a challenging and destructive social condition.

sershe 5y ago

I think a big problem is that it's typically not given as an alternative. You're either us or them... which makes sense, otherwise the wedge wouldn't work. However, I also don't think that to the extent that it is true, this theory correctly identifies the biggest problem. For example, for all the abstract faulting of race-blind institutions in New Jim Crow, most of the actual examples it gives (poll tests, housing segregation, where to enforce the law against drugs/deals, sentencing disparity, etc.) follow the same formula - government power + personal discretion. I.e. good ol' racism that is given the power that can be applied selectively. I think that is a much, much bigger problem than the classist institutions that propagate the resulting racial disparities. If the former issue was resolved by (1) not creating opportunities for it (2) creating compensatory policies like affirmative action/etc.; classist institutions would stop being race-correlated over time.

beaconstudios 5y ago
There's certainly room for that argument - I think the problem is that as it stands right now, the divide is too great to overcome without active intervention because the outcomes of white and black people are bifurcated. Thus, a large effort will need to be undertaken if the races are to reach opportunity parity. I think that the two solutions you posited, reducing the opportunity for active discrimination and providing affirmative action opportunities, are a big help - however some institutional reforms are also necessary, including (in my humble, foreign opinion) government investment in predominantly black schools and enterprises, and ending the drug war which disproportionately affects both the poor, and minorities. Once parity is reached I think these resources could be allocated on a purely economic basis, but until then I think that the US government has a moral obligation to resolve the problems that it created.
- sershe 5y ago
  Well, those policies do both fall in the same framework. Ending war on drugs is basically removing government power that can be, and is, abused in a racist way. Licensing is another one btw (many occupations require licensing => licenses are not given to felons => drug "crimes" are felonies => boom). Investing in black schools and enterprises is broadly similar to affirmative action in that they are biases that compensate for prior opposite biases. Both are compatible with overall meritocracy and classism...