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> We need, as a society, an ID document. In the UK, we end up making it up through the use of a passport/DL and a combination of various other official letters.

> We need, as a society, an ID document. In the UK, we end up making it up through the use of a passport/DL and a combination of various other official letters. A voluntary national ID could be useful, something that effectively the same as a driving licence, but available to all U.K. residents without cost. Not sure I agree we _need_ it, existing documents work surprisingly well. > Young adults end up carrying their passports just so they can prove their age to go drinking - do you not see that this is a problem? They can get a provisional driving licence instead, it cheaper than a passport. There’s also no requirement to use an in-date passport. Bars and pubs will happy accept an expired passport with it corner snipped, as long as the photo is recognisable. > idea that an ID card is somehow anti-democratic is ridiculous and, frankly, far fetched. I never made this claim. Democracies are just as capable of committing atrocities as totalitarian states, they just tend to do less frequently and with better PR. I personally think people should think seriously about who they hand their identity data too, examine what benefits it might provide, but also consider how it could be abused in the future. I like the fact that most databases in the U.K. are difficult to integrate because there’s no clear single identifier for a person, joining data requires a degree of fuzzy matching and creates opportunities to challenge government agencies. > Fraud, in the UK, takes place on an industrial scale. I’m well aware of the scale of fraud in the U.K., I’ve spent years developing systems to prevent it, and run full on into the issues caused by a lack of national ID. However I still believe the trade-off is worth it. I’ve seen to many examples private organisations effectively running a shadow judicial system that can prevent and individual from accessing essentials societal services, like banking, with no oversight or appeals process. A national ID would just make it easier to build these systems, and innocent people who get caught up will pay the price (for a fraudster, getting caught is just the cost of business, they go in with their eyes wide open). The ultimate goal of society is not to produce the most efficient economic system. There are trade-offs to be made, and achieving zero fraud is far more problematic that having some fraud.

multjoy 5y ago
>existing documents work surprisingly well Not really. A passport is expensive, a drivers licence isn't supposed to be a photo ID card and someone shouldn't have to pretend to be a driver in order to obtain one. >They can get a provisional driving licence instead, it cheaper than a passport. There’s also no requirement to use an in-date passport. Bars and pubs will happy accept an expired passport with it corner snipped, as long as the photo is recognisable. Some bars might. Others may not. In any case, you've still got to a passport in the first place, so that doesn't remove the renewal cost or the initial cost. It's also a multi-page book. If we're going to run a provisional DL as a de-facto ID card, why not just have an ID card? >I’ve seen to many examples private organisations effectively running a shadow judicial system that can prevent and individual from accessing essentials societal services, like banking, with no oversight or appeals process. A national ID would just make it easier to build these systems If you're verifying someone's ID at all then those issues are going to exist. That's not a problem with having an ID card, that's a systems problem - if you use a DL, there's a URN. If you use a passport, there's a URN. Not having a national ID card is, frankly, Stone Age. If you want to avoid the spectre of Papiere, Bitte then that is a legislative problem and not a technical one.
- avianlyric 5y ago
  > Some bars might. Others may not. In any case, you've still got to a passport in the first place, so that doesn't remove the renewal cost or the initial cost. It's also a multi-page book. Pretty much every bar does. I know this because I have several friends that used expired passports for years without issue. It’s also frequently done be foreign students, because most bar staff don’t recognise any form of foreign ID except a passport. So there’s no need to ever renew the passport. > It's also a multi-page book. So what? It no more difficult to carry than a small wallet or purse. > If we're going to run a provisional DL as a de-facto ID card, why not just have an ID card? Because the DVLA don’t want it to be an ID because it’s a pain in the arse for them. Which is good, because they go out of their way to make accessing the data difficult for any reason that isn’t driving related. Creates a nice little natural firewall against abuse. > If you're verifying someone's ID at all then those issues are going to exist. That's not a problem with having an ID card, that's a systems problem - if you use a DL, there's a URN. If you use a passport, there's a URN. The URNs change on each renewal or replacement, strictly limiting how long they can be used to track an individual. Additionally people can choose which document they use with each entity, and make it harder for different entities to match their IDs. > Not having a national ID card is, frankly, Stone Age. If you want to avoid the spectre of Papiere, Bitte then that is a legislative problem and not a technical one. Yes it is, just like paper voting. Thats a good thing, it shouldn’t be easy for future governments or corporations to track individuals without their consent. With regards to Papiere, Bitte legislation solves nothing. It can easily be changed at a whim, our executive government almost always has a majority in the legislative house, make it trivial for them to amend legislation on whim as it suite them. Surely your not blind? You must have seen the numerous abuses of this powers from Boris’s Tory government over the past year. Just look at anything Priti Patel has worked on. Throwing away natural defences against abuse for convenience is stupid and short sighted. There are plenty of innovative ways of working within our current ID system, while still offering a high level of convenience, without making it easy to abuse the data. Just look at any recent neo-bank to find half a dozen examples.
xorcist 5y ago
> many examples private organisations effectively running a shadow judicial system This is exactly it. The abscence of a universally accepted identity creates an unregulated shadow system instead. The European countries with stronger and more developed identity systems also tend to have stronger data protection laws, precisely because universally accepted identity data can be regulated.

multjoy 5y ago

>existing documents work surprisingly well Not really. A passport is expensive, a drivers licence isn't supposed to be a photo ID card and someone shouldn't have to pretend to be a driver in order to obtain one. >They can get a provisional driving licence instead, it cheaper than a passport. There’s also no requirement to use an in-date passport. Bars and pubs will happy accept an expired passport with it corner snipped, as long as the photo is recognisable. Some bars might. Others may not. In any case, you've still got to a passport in the first place, so that doesn't remove the renewal cost or the initial cost. It's also a multi-page book. If we're going to run a provisional DL as a de-facto ID card, why not just have an ID card? >I’ve seen to many examples private organisations effectively running a shadow judicial system that can prevent and individual from accessing essentials societal services, like banking, with no oversight or appeals process. A national ID would just make it easier to build these systems If you're verifying someone's ID at all then those issues are going to exist. That's not a problem with having an ID card, that's a systems problem - if you use a DL, there's a URN. If you use a passport, there's a URN. Not having a national ID card is, frankly, Stone Age. If you want to avoid the spectre of Papiere, Bitte then that is a legislative problem and not a technical one.

avianlyric 5y ago
> Some bars might. Others may not. In any case, you've still got to a passport in the first place, so that doesn't remove the renewal cost or the initial cost. It's also a multi-page book. Pretty much every bar does. I know this because I have several friends that used expired passports for years without issue. It’s also frequently done be foreign students, because most bar staff don’t recognise any form of foreign ID except a passport. So there’s no need to ever renew the passport. > It's also a multi-page book. So what? It no more difficult to carry than a small wallet or purse. > If we're going to run a provisional DL as a de-facto ID card, why not just have an ID card? Because the DVLA don’t want it to be an ID because it’s a pain in the arse for them. Which is good, because they go out of their way to make accessing the data difficult for any reason that isn’t driving related. Creates a nice little natural firewall against abuse. > If you're verifying someone's ID at all then those issues are going to exist. That's not a problem with having an ID card, that's a systems problem - if you use a DL, there's a URN. If you use a passport, there's a URN. The URNs change on each renewal or replacement, strictly limiting how long they can be used to track an individual. Additionally people can choose which document they use with each entity, and make it harder for different entities to match their IDs. > Not having a national ID card is, frankly, Stone Age. If you want to avoid the spectre of Papiere, Bitte then that is a legislative problem and not a technical one. Yes it is, just like paper voting. Thats a good thing, it shouldn’t be easy for future governments or corporations to track individuals without their consent. With regards to Papiere, Bitte legislation solves nothing. It can easily be changed at a whim, our executive government almost always has a majority in the legislative house, make it trivial for them to amend legislation on whim as it suite them. Surely your not blind? You must have seen the numerous abuses of this powers from Boris’s Tory government over the past year. Just look at anything Priti Patel has worked on. Throwing away natural defences against abuse for convenience is stupid and short sighted. There are plenty of innovative ways of working within our current ID system, while still offering a high level of convenience, without making it easy to abuse the data. Just look at any recent neo-bank to find half a dozen examples.

xorcist 5y ago

> many examples private organisations effectively running a shadow judicial system This is exactly it. The abscence of a universally accepted identity creates an unregulated shadow system instead. The European countries with stronger and more developed identity systems also tend to have stronger data protection laws, precisely because universally accepted identity data can be regulated.