3 ms·

I am so curious about the use of mushrooms and alcohol in ancient times. The historical record contains almost no evidence for psychoactive mushroom use, despit

I am so curious about the use of mushrooms and alcohol in ancient times. The historical record contains almost no evidence for psychoactive mushroom use, despite rather widespread availability. In the absence of evidence (and the assumption that people generally like drugs), I speculate that a cultural taboo arose after the brewers (agriculturalists) beat the trippers (nomads). And yet, “Mycenaean” translates roughly to the mushroom people…

mr_toad 5y ago
> widespread availability Was it really widespread? Compared to fields of grain?
lr4444lr 5y ago
I think it's still fairly mainstream in Vedic scholarship that "soma" mentioned in ancient India was a psychoactive mushroom, even though which one is still contentious.
- baybal2 5y ago
  Some is not a mushroom, but an ephedra tea. Works like a very strong coffee. Can't believe you can get 10 years for it in some countries.
  - buildsjets 5y ago
    So, your claim is that the modern substance called soma is the same thing as the ancient substance called soma. Do you have any evidence that supports this claim?
thechao 5y ago
> And yet, “Mycenaean” translates roughly to the mushroom people… This has got to be my top-contender for wackiest HN comment if the week. Please: could you show any sources for this assertion? Start with the sctual Greek; because, the actual Greek words are about as related as "moose" and "mouse".
- bigbillheck 5y ago
  Most of that comment is kind of goofy but the etymology isn't absurd. Per https://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Paus.+2.16.3&fromdoc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0160 https://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Paus.+2.16.3&f... : So the prediction of the god to Acrisius found its fulfillment, nor was his fate prevented by his precautions against his daughter and grandson. Perseus, ashamed because of the gossip about the homicide, on his return to Argos induced Megapenthes, the son of Proetus, to make an exchange of kingdoms; taking over himself that of Megapenthes, he founded Mycenae. For on its site the cap （myces） fell from his scabbard, and he regarded this as a sign to found a city. I have also heard the following account. He was thirsty, and the thought occurred to him to pick up a mushroom （myces） from the ground. Drinking with joy water that flowed from it, he gave to the place the name of Mycenae.
  - andybak 5y ago
    It's actually in the etymology section on Wikipedia too: > Legend has it that the name was connected to the Greek word mykēs (μύκης, "mushroom"). Thus, Pausanias ascribes the name to the legendary founder Perseus, who was said to have named it either after the cap (mykēs) of the sheath of his sword, or after a mushroom he had plucked on the site. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mycenae https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mycenae Even if that's true then it is still a leap from "People from Mushroom City" to "Mushroom People"
    - kgeist 5y ago
      Could as well be folk etymology. "Mykes" has stem myket- (*mykets > mykes, genetive "myketos") The -t- isn't found in "Mykenai" There was also "mykon" meaning "I mooed", and if you have enough fantasy you can link it to Minotaurus, for example.
      - buildsjets 5y ago
        The worldwide distribution of Psilocybe Cubensis hallucinogenic mushrooms are strongly correlated to the domestication and worldwide spread of cattle. And the Minoans certainly involved cattle/bulls as a part of their worship practices.
cblconfederate 5y ago
Mycenaeans get their name from Mycenae, but i doubt they ever called themselves mycenean. There are various theories about the use of mushrooms in the Eleusinian and the Dionysian mysteries among others.
adrian_b 5y ago
A relationship between "Mycenaean" and mushrooms is very unlikely. "Mycenaean" comes from a feminine name, which in the older pronunciation before the 1st millennium BC would have been "Mukaanaa". The Greek name of the mushroom, in the older pronunciation would have been either "mukeet" or "mukaat", which is likely to be derived from a word meaning "mud". While the feminine name "Mukaanaa" starts with "muk", like mushroom, it is not formed according to the usual Greek rules for word derivation and there are also many other Greek words starting with "muk". There was indeed someone (Solmsen) who, in 1912, proposed seriously this etymology, but others (e.g. Krahe) presented counterarguments that this etymology cannot be true, which were considered much more convincing.
- dr_dshiv 5y ago
  A detailed rebuttal to Krahe is presented by Wasson, p129. Note that you are basing your argument on Greek, but this is a preGreek term. https://books.google.com/books/about/The_Road_to_Eleusis.html?id=lZXpO_3szpsC https://books.google.com/books/about/The_Road_to_Eleusis.htm...
  - adrian_b 5y ago
    Thanks for the link. I have found online a fragment of Wasson, but unfortunately the fragment stops before page 129, so I could not see the rebuttal, only a mention by Wasson that some colleague derided him for believing that there is a connection between the name Mycenae and mushrooms. Wasson might be right about the use of mushrooms at the Greek mysteries, but that has nothing to do with the name of the city Mycenae. We know that the female name from which Mycenae is derived has been in use, e.g. in the Odyssey some nymph with this name is mentioned. It does not make much sense for a woman's name to refer to mushrooms. Assuming that you are right and the woman/city name is pre-Greek, then that removes any connection with the Greek name of the mushroom, which is likely to be Indo-European, derived from the same word with the Latin "mucus".
    - dr_dshiv 5y ago
      Here is Wasson’s argument. The idea that it is preGreek comes from this etymology website. https://etymology_el_en.en-academic.com/6991/%CE%9C%CF%85%CC%86%CE%BA%E1%BF%86%CE%BD%CE%B1%CE%B9 https://etymology_el_en.en-academic.com/6991/%CE%9C%CF%85%CC... “The etymology of Mykenai from mykes, although frequently proposed, was rejected by Krahe (Gnomon 17, 1945, 472). There seems, however, no reason why the city's name is not correctly associated with mykes. The declensional stem of mykes alternates between myket- (third declension) and myke- (first declension); the lack of -t-in Mykenai is therefore not significant. For a city related to a plant, cf. Mekone from the opium poppy mekon. Mykenai, furthermore, is a feminine plural, like Thebes (Thebai) and Athens (Athenai); as in the names of those cities, Mykenai derived from the nymph of the place, Mykene (Homer, Odyssey 2. 120; Hesiod, frg. 246, Merkelbach and West; etc.), the primordial bride whose descent into death there established, or continually re-established, the compact with the chthonic realm upon which union. the living city could be founded. There was also a tradition about an eponymous male founder, Mykeneus, whose father was Sparton, the 'sown man,' apparently an autochthonous inhabitant like the Spartoe at Thebes growing from the land (Acusilaus, frg. 16, Jacoby Eustathius on Homer, Iliad 2. 569 p. 289. 47; cf. scholia to Euripides, Orestes 1239). It is formulaic in foundation myths for the narrative to show a pattern of mediation between two versions of origin, autochthony and in migration; the autochthonous inhabitant quite naturally displays botanic characteristics and the mediation between opposite claimants to the place is effected via the sacred marriage. The name of the city Mykenai, therefore, would suggest that the mykes figured in Mycenaean religion. There was a tradition that at the neighboring city of Corinth, the original inhabitants were mushrooms that Sisyphus converted into men (Ovid, Metamorphoses 7.392-3; cf. Apollodorus 1. 9. 3).”
pomian 5y ago
You've got to listen to Dan Carlin's Hardcore History episode : "History Under the Influence". (In case you don't know, Dan Carlin hosts a series of amazing, breathtaking almost, history podcasts. Series ranging from ancient times through WW1 and WW2. He truly brings history alive, and is addictive. Especially great for long road trips.)
YeGoblynQueenne 5y ago
>> And yet, “Mycenaean” translates roughly to the mushroom people… We don't know where the name comes from. The association with mushrooms is the popular etymology but that's not to say it's right. Wikipedia has this to say: Legend has it that the name was connected to the Greek word mykēs (μύκης, "mushroom"). Thus, Pausanias ascribes the name to the legendary founder Perseus, who was said to have named it either after the cap (mykēs) of the sheath of his sword, or after a mushroom he had plucked on the site.[11] So even this apocryphal explanation for the name doesn't imply any close association of the Myceneans with mushrooms. Certainly not for the use you suggest, that really didn't feature much in the tales of ancient Mediterranneans.

mr_toad 5y ago

> widespread availability Was it really widespread? Compared to fields of grain?

lr4444lr 5y ago

I think it's still fairly mainstream in Vedic scholarship that "soma" mentioned in ancient India was a psychoactive mushroom, even though which one is still contentious.

baybal2 5y ago
Some is not a mushroom, but an ephedra tea. Works like a very strong coffee. Can't believe you can get 10 years for it in some countries.
- buildsjets 5y ago
  So, your claim is that the modern substance called soma is the same thing as the ancient substance called soma. Do you have any evidence that supports this claim?

thechao 5y ago

> And yet, “Mycenaean” translates roughly to the mushroom people… This has got to be my top-contender for wackiest HN comment if the week. Please: could you show any sources for this assertion? Start with the sctual Greek; because, the actual Greek words are about as related as "moose" and "mouse".

bigbillheck 5y ago
Most of that comment is kind of goofy but the etymology isn't absurd. Per https://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Paus.+2.16.3&fromdoc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0160 https://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Paus.+2.16.3&f... : So the prediction of the god to Acrisius found its fulfillment, nor was his fate prevented by his precautions against his daughter and grandson. Perseus, ashamed because of the gossip about the homicide, on his return to Argos induced Megapenthes, the son of Proetus, to make an exchange of kingdoms; taking over himself that of Megapenthes, he founded Mycenae. For on its site the cap （myces） fell from his scabbard, and he regarded this as a sign to found a city. I have also heard the following account. He was thirsty, and the thought occurred to him to pick up a mushroom （myces） from the ground. Drinking with joy water that flowed from it, he gave to the place the name of Mycenae.
- andybak 5y ago
  It's actually in the etymology section on Wikipedia too: > Legend has it that the name was connected to the Greek word mykēs (μύκης, "mushroom"). Thus, Pausanias ascribes the name to the legendary founder Perseus, who was said to have named it either after the cap (mykēs) of the sheath of his sword, or after a mushroom he had plucked on the site. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mycenae https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mycenae Even if that's true then it is still a leap from "People from Mushroom City" to "Mushroom People"
  - kgeist 5y ago
    Could as well be folk etymology. "Mykes" has stem myket- (*mykets > mykes, genetive "myketos") The -t- isn't found in "Mykenai" There was also "mykon" meaning "I mooed", and if you have enough fantasy you can link it to Minotaurus, for example.
    - buildsjets 5y ago
      The worldwide distribution of Psilocybe Cubensis hallucinogenic mushrooms are strongly correlated to the domestication and worldwide spread of cattle. And the Minoans certainly involved cattle/bulls as a part of their worship practices.

cblconfederate 5y ago

Mycenaeans get their name from Mycenae, but i doubt they ever called themselves mycenean. There are various theories about the use of mushrooms in the Eleusinian and the Dionysian mysteries among others.

adrian_b 5y ago

A relationship between "Mycenaean" and mushrooms is very unlikely. "Mycenaean" comes from a feminine name, which in the older pronunciation before the 1st millennium BC would have been "Mukaanaa". The Greek name of the mushroom, in the older pronunciation would have been either "mukeet" or "mukaat", which is likely to be derived from a word meaning "mud". While the feminine name "Mukaanaa" starts with "muk", like mushroom, it is not formed according to the usual Greek rules for word derivation and there are also many other Greek words starting with "muk". There was indeed someone (Solmsen) who, in 1912, proposed seriously this etymology, but others (e.g. Krahe) presented counterarguments that this etymology cannot be true, which were considered much more convincing.

dr_dshiv 5y ago
A detailed rebuttal to Krahe is presented by Wasson, p129. Note that you are basing your argument on Greek, but this is a preGreek term. https://books.google.com/books/about/The_Road_to_Eleusis.html?id=lZXpO_3szpsC https://books.google.com/books/about/The_Road_to_Eleusis.htm...
- adrian_b 5y ago
  Thanks for the link. I have found online a fragment of Wasson, but unfortunately the fragment stops before page 129, so I could not see the rebuttal, only a mention by Wasson that some colleague derided him for believing that there is a connection between the name Mycenae and mushrooms. Wasson might be right about the use of mushrooms at the Greek mysteries, but that has nothing to do with the name of the city Mycenae. We know that the female name from which Mycenae is derived has been in use, e.g. in the Odyssey some nymph with this name is mentioned. It does not make much sense for a woman's name to refer to mushrooms. Assuming that you are right and the woman/city name is pre-Greek, then that removes any connection with the Greek name of the mushroom, which is likely to be Indo-European, derived from the same word with the Latin "mucus".
  - dr_dshiv 5y ago
    Here is Wasson’s argument. The idea that it is preGreek comes from this etymology website. https://etymology_el_en.en-academic.com/6991/%CE%9C%CF%85%CC%86%CE%BA%E1%BF%86%CE%BD%CE%B1%CE%B9 https://etymology_el_en.en-academic.com/6991/%CE%9C%CF%85%CC... “The etymology of Mykenai from mykes, although frequently proposed, was rejected by Krahe (Gnomon 17, 1945, 472). There seems, however, no reason why the city's name is not correctly associated with mykes. The declensional stem of mykes alternates between myket- (third declension) and myke- (first declension); the lack of -t-in Mykenai is therefore not significant. For a city related to a plant, cf. Mekone from the opium poppy mekon. Mykenai, furthermore, is a feminine plural, like Thebes (Thebai) and Athens (Athenai); as in the names of those cities, Mykenai derived from the nymph of the place, Mykene (Homer, Odyssey 2. 120; Hesiod, frg. 246, Merkelbach and West; etc.), the primordial bride whose descent into death there established, or continually re-established, the compact with the chthonic realm upon which union. the living city could be founded. There was also a tradition about an eponymous male founder, Mykeneus, whose father was Sparton, the 'sown man,' apparently an autochthonous inhabitant like the Spartoe at Thebes growing from the land (Acusilaus, frg. 16, Jacoby Eustathius on Homer, Iliad 2. 569 p. 289. 47; cf. scholia to Euripides, Orestes 1239). It is formulaic in foundation myths for the narrative to show a pattern of mediation between two versions of origin, autochthony and in migration; the autochthonous inhabitant quite naturally displays botanic characteristics and the mediation between opposite claimants to the place is effected via the sacred marriage. The name of the city Mykenai, therefore, would suggest that the mykes figured in Mycenaean religion. There was a tradition that at the neighboring city of Corinth, the original inhabitants were mushrooms that Sisyphus converted into men (Ovid, Metamorphoses 7.392-3; cf. Apollodorus 1. 9. 3).”

pomian 5y ago

You've got to listen to Dan Carlin's Hardcore History episode : "History Under the Influence". (In case you don't know, Dan Carlin hosts a series of amazing, breathtaking almost, history podcasts. Series ranging from ancient times through WW1 and WW2. He truly brings history alive, and is addictive. Especially great for long road trips.)

YeGoblynQueenne 5y ago

>> And yet, “Mycenaean” translates roughly to the mushroom people… We don't know where the name comes from. The association with mushrooms is the popular etymology but that's not to say it's right. Wikipedia has this to say: Legend has it that the name was connected to the Greek word mykēs (μύκης, "mushroom"). Thus, Pausanias ascribes the name to the legendary founder Perseus, who was said to have named it either after the cap (mykēs) of the sheath of his sword, or after a mushroom he had plucked on the site.[11] So even this apocryphal explanation for the name doesn't imply any close association of the Myceneans with mushrooms. Certainly not for the use you suggest, that really didn't feature much in the tales of ancient Mediterranneans.