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Well maybe that's why it's safe and clean.

cainxinth 5y ago
It is. The question is how much freedom and liberty should a society give up in exchange for it? I don’t think there is any one right answer… but no chewing gum is a bit extreme in my opinion.
- rayiner 5y ago
  What’s the point of gum?
  - bradlys 5y ago
    What’s the point of flavored water?
    - rayiner 5y ago
      There isn’t one.
- cturner 5y ago
  I have some respect for the gum ban. The tile surfaces outside Wimbledon Station are ruined by gum stains, and it lowers the feel of the area. Each time I notice it, I admire the Singapore ban.
  - systemvoltage 5y ago
    I also admire how clean some places in North Korea are.
    - beaunative 5y ago
      clean is not a bad thing, and urine in public spaces is certainly dispicable. Generic discussion about control is pointless without taking accounts of specific measures and situations.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- philliphaydon 5y ago
  You don't really give up anything in Singapore.
- Barrin92 5y ago
  the entire idea of 'giving up' freedom isn't right. Abstract freedoms are always embedded in a social context. The reason you have the individually free ability to walk across the road is because everyone else follows the rules. If everyone drove through traffic randomly, you wouldn't even have the capacity to exercise any meaningful freedom. Part of having a proper understanding of liberty is that recognition of authority is a precondition for it and not an obstacle. Personal freedom does not stand in contrast to, but is embedded in social order, and that's why Singaporean's aren't giving anything up. Ask a woman whether she's more free to walk through town in Singapore at 1 am or a bad part of any typically 'free' city. It's not without irony that people in China basically faced barely any covid restrictions over a year while here in Europe everyone was locked into their apartments for months by government mandate, complaining about the lack of freedoms in other parts of the world.
  - slibhb 5y ago
    Your formulation leads to "freedom is obedience," which is absurd. Freedom is about being able to do what you want. It's one thing to say that absolute freedom is not ideal, it's another to say that restriction of choice increases freedom. Singapore and China gain something but they're also giving something up. People can disagree over whether that trade if justified but not over whether there's a trade.
    - Barrin92 5y ago
      It may sound absurd, but it really isn't. Hedonistic choice, i.e. to "do what you want" is not perceived as freedom but as anxiety. Someone who lives alone in his flat and works 20 different gig jobs and shoots heroin whenever he wants is in that superficial sense 'free', but in reality the opposite is the case, he's subject to basically just instinct, which is the worst form of oppression, ask any addict. Freedom or liberty in a more authentic, humanistic sense, also in the same way religious people understand it (no coincidence that Islam literally translates to 'submission' (to god)) grounds you in reason, reality and requires that understanding what legitimate authority is like. Only from that point can you actually start to make genuinely free decisions, you need to be set free from(!) a whole bunch of things first. It's also btw why so many young people today, less coerced than ever before, don't feel free at all, just disoriented, and why they flock to political authoritarianism. The sort of relativism invited in by not properly understanding the relationship between authority and freedom has the ironical result of creating demand for some of the very worst forms of oppression.
- inkyoto 5y ago
  > but no chewing gum is a bit extreme in my opinion. People, especially the ones who have never travelled to Singapore, need to stop rehashing this story of old. Chewing gum can be freely purchased in Singapore from a pharmacy. No, one won't be searched at the airport and/or canned for bringing their own chewing gum into the city.
  - refurb 5y ago
    Can only be purchased with a letter from a doctor or dentist, your National ID number is recorded and you can only buy small amounts. You won’t go to jail for a pack of gum in your luggage but you will be punished if caught bribing in large quantities (likely a fine or if a foreigner, banned from coming to SG).
micromacrofoot 5y ago
that and cheap migrant labor
gremloni 5y ago
It’s not worth it. That being said I don’t know if Singapore is all that bad.
novok 5y ago
I don't think surveillance is the real necessary part to keep a place safe and clean, but a culture that cares about being safe and clean and legal system that cares about enforcing against acting that way. Singapore was like that before cheap mass digital surveillance was possible. Even before VHS taped security cameras were affordable. And back in the VHS era, there was way less CCTV.

It is. The question is how much freedom and liberty should a society give up in exchange for it? I don’t think there is any one right answer… but no chewing gum is a bit extreme in my opinion.

rayiner 5y ago
What’s the point of gum?
- bradlys 5y ago
  What’s the point of flavored water?
  - rayiner 5y ago
    There isn’t one.
cturner 5y ago
I have some respect for the gum ban. The tile surfaces outside Wimbledon Station are ruined by gum stains, and it lowers the feel of the area. Each time I notice it, I admire the Singapore ban.
- systemvoltage 5y ago
  I also admire how clean some places in North Korea are.
  - beaunative 5y ago
    clean is not a bad thing, and urine in public spaces is certainly dispicable. Generic discussion about control is pointless without taking accounts of specific measures and situations.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
philliphaydon 5y ago
You don't really give up anything in Singapore.
Barrin92 5y ago
the entire idea of 'giving up' freedom isn't right. Abstract freedoms are always embedded in a social context. The reason you have the individually free ability to walk across the road is because everyone else follows the rules. If everyone drove through traffic randomly, you wouldn't even have the capacity to exercise any meaningful freedom. Part of having a proper understanding of liberty is that recognition of authority is a precondition for it and not an obstacle. Personal freedom does not stand in contrast to, but is embedded in social order, and that's why Singaporean's aren't giving anything up. Ask a woman whether she's more free to walk through town in Singapore at 1 am or a bad part of any typically 'free' city. It's not without irony that people in China basically faced barely any covid restrictions over a year while here in Europe everyone was locked into their apartments for months by government mandate, complaining about the lack of freedoms in other parts of the world.
- slibhb 5y ago
  Your formulation leads to "freedom is obedience," which is absurd. Freedom is about being able to do what you want. It's one thing to say that absolute freedom is not ideal, it's another to say that restriction of choice increases freedom. Singapore and China gain something but they're also giving something up. People can disagree over whether that trade if justified but not over whether there's a trade.
  - Barrin92 5y ago
    It may sound absurd, but it really isn't. Hedonistic choice, i.e. to "do what you want" is not perceived as freedom but as anxiety. Someone who lives alone in his flat and works 20 different gig jobs and shoots heroin whenever he wants is in that superficial sense 'free', but in reality the opposite is the case, he's subject to basically just instinct, which is the worst form of oppression, ask any addict. Freedom or liberty in a more authentic, humanistic sense, also in the same way religious people understand it (no coincidence that Islam literally translates to 'submission' (to god)) grounds you in reason, reality and requires that understanding what legitimate authority is like. Only from that point can you actually start to make genuinely free decisions, you need to be set free from(!) a whole bunch of things first. It's also btw why so many young people today, less coerced than ever before, don't feel free at all, just disoriented, and why they flock to political authoritarianism. The sort of relativism invited in by not properly understanding the relationship between authority and freedom has the ironical result of creating demand for some of the very worst forms of oppression.
inkyoto 5y ago
> but no chewing gum is a bit extreme in my opinion. People, especially the ones who have never travelled to Singapore, need to stop rehashing this story of old. Chewing gum can be freely purchased in Singapore from a pharmacy. No, one won't be searched at the airport and/or canned for bringing their own chewing gum into the city.
- refurb 5y ago
  Can only be purchased with a letter from a doctor or dentist, your National ID number is recorded and you can only buy small amounts. You won’t go to jail for a pack of gum in your luggage but you will be punished if caught bribing in large quantities (likely a fine or if a foreigner, banned from coming to SG).

micromacrofoot 5y ago

that and cheap migrant labor

gremloni 5y ago

It’s not worth it. That being said I don’t know if Singapore is all that bad.

novok 5y ago

I don't think surveillance is the real necessary part to keep a place safe and clean, but a culture that cares about being safe and clean and legal system that cares about enforcing against acting that way. Singapore was like that before cheap mass digital surveillance was possible. Even before VHS taped security cameras were affordable. And back in the VHS era, there was way less CCTV.