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>In the U.K. at least, two World Wars have taught us to be wary of central government databases. Speak for yourself. The anti-ID faction is basically hysterica

>In the U.K. at least, two World Wars have taught us to be wary of central government databases. Speak for yourself. The anti-ID faction is basically hysterically scared of the idea of 'papers, please'. That's it, and that's why there is a specific statutory defence to not carrying your drivers licence while driving (the HORT1 'producer'), which itself has been made irrelevant by the fact that the PNC has access to the DVLA driver file database. We need, as a society, an ID document. In the UK, we end up making it up through the use of a passport/DL and a combination of various other official letters. Young adults end up carrying their passports just so they can prove their age to go drinking - do you not see that this is a problem? While I share concerns re biometrics etc, the idea that an ID card is somehow anti-democratic is ridiculous and, frankly, far fetched. >At least in the U.K. there are clear and simple guidelines for undoing the damage caused by identity theft. If a bank account or loan was opened in your name, the bank has to close it and write off any losses, and they should compensate you for the trouble. Which is fine for the consumer, if not a considerable amount of hassle, but is also the source of much financial loss. Fraud, in the UK, takes place on an industrial scale.

denton-scratch 5y ago
> the idea that an ID card is somehow anti-democratic is ridiculous I don't think anyone invoked the spectre of 'democracy'. A common fear of ID cards is that, once everyone is supposed to own one, some government comes along and decrees that you must carry one at all times. Then the police are given powers to arrest anyone not carrying ID; and finally, to stop and search anyone on the suspicion that they are not carrying ID. Those fears are not "hysterical". Also: the novel 1981 was written about a future UK.
- multjoy 5y ago
  >A common fear of ID cards is that, once everyone is supposed to own one, some government comes along and decrees that you must carry one at all times. Then the police are given powers to arrest anyone not carrying ID; and finally, to stop and search anyone on the suspicion that they are not carrying ID. And can you point towards a European country that isn't in the grip of a totalitarian state where this currently happens? It's typical British exceptionalism, like unarmed police and Brexit. We'll massively inconvenience ourselves out of principle, while sensible populations look on in bemusement. >Also: the novel 1981 was written about a future UK. I'll assume that you mean 1984, which is fiction. Orwell, after all, was English and you would expect him to write political allegories based here.
  - avianlyric 5y ago
    > It's typical British exceptionalism, like unarmed police and Brexit. Odd thing to get worked up about. Not sure why you link brining guns into a potential heated situation is gonna make it any better. Most police offers don’t even want to carry a gun, I certainly don’t want police officers carrying a gun. That got nothing to do with exceptionalism, I just think a police officers primary responsibility is to their community. We should rate them based on their ability to prevent crime through community relationships and diplomacy, not on their ability to rapidly deliver lethal amounts of lead into a situation. We should stand up for our principles, and try and build a society to thats a fair and equal as possible, regardless of an individual quirks and differences. We shouldn’t be aiming to create a uniform society just because it economically more efficient, and removes the need for the majority to think about the needs of the minority.
  - denton-scratch 5y ago
    Yes, of course, 1984! He was expressing his fears about the future of the UK, because he was British (and of course, because he was projecting a future, it was fiction). You are quite right. > And can you point towards a European country that isn't in the grip of a totalitarian state where this currently happens? No, but there are several European countries that are essentially totalitarian at the moment; and there are several European countries that are not currently totalitarian, that have required people to carry ID on pain of arrest during my memory. It's a reasonable fear.
  - slavboj 5y ago
    >And can you point towards a European country that isn't in the grip of a totalitarian state where this currently happens? Austria and Germany currently follow such a policy, strictly for the duration of the emergency of course.
avianlyric 5y ago
> We need, as a society, an ID document. In the UK, we end up making it up through the use of a passport/DL and a combination of various other official letters. A voluntary national ID could be useful, something that effectively the same as a driving licence, but available to all U.K. residents without cost. Not sure I agree we _need_ it, existing documents work surprisingly well. > Young adults end up carrying their passports just so they can prove their age to go drinking - do you not see that this is a problem? They can get a provisional driving licence instead, it cheaper than a passport. There’s also no requirement to use an in-date passport. Bars and pubs will happy accept an expired passport with it corner snipped, as long as the photo is recognisable. > idea that an ID card is somehow anti-democratic is ridiculous and, frankly, far fetched. I never made this claim. Democracies are just as capable of committing atrocities as totalitarian states, they just tend to do less frequently and with better PR. I personally think people should think seriously about who they hand their identity data too, examine what benefits it might provide, but also consider how it could be abused in the future. I like the fact that most databases in the U.K. are difficult to integrate because there’s no clear single identifier for a person, joining data requires a degree of fuzzy matching and creates opportunities to challenge government agencies. > Fraud, in the UK, takes place on an industrial scale. I’m well aware of the scale of fraud in the U.K., I’ve spent years developing systems to prevent it, and run full on into the issues caused by a lack of national ID. However I still believe the trade-off is worth it. I’ve seen to many examples private organisations effectively running a shadow judicial system that can prevent and individual from accessing essentials societal services, like banking, with no oversight or appeals process. A national ID would just make it easier to build these systems, and innocent people who get caught up will pay the price (for a fraudster, getting caught is just the cost of business, they go in with their eyes wide open). The ultimate goal of society is not to produce the most efficient economic system. There are trade-offs to be made, and achieving zero fraud is far more problematic that having some fraud.
- multjoy 5y ago
  >existing documents work surprisingly well Not really. A passport is expensive, a drivers licence isn't supposed to be a photo ID card and someone shouldn't have to pretend to be a driver in order to obtain one. >They can get a provisional driving licence instead, it cheaper than a passport. There’s also no requirement to use an in-date passport. Bars and pubs will happy accept an expired passport with it corner snipped, as long as the photo is recognisable. Some bars might. Others may not. In any case, you've still got to a passport in the first place, so that doesn't remove the renewal cost or the initial cost. It's also a multi-page book. If we're going to run a provisional DL as a de-facto ID card, why not just have an ID card? >I’ve seen to many examples private organisations effectively running a shadow judicial system that can prevent and individual from accessing essentials societal services, like banking, with no oversight or appeals process. A national ID would just make it easier to build these systems If you're verifying someone's ID at all then those issues are going to exist. That's not a problem with having an ID card, that's a systems problem - if you use a DL, there's a URN. If you use a passport, there's a URN. Not having a national ID card is, frankly, Stone Age. If you want to avoid the spectre of Papiere, Bitte then that is a legislative problem and not a technical one.
kwhitefoot 5y ago
We don't have a compulsory ID card here in Norway either.

denton-scratch 5y ago

> the idea that an ID card is somehow anti-democratic is ridiculous I don't think anyone invoked the spectre of 'democracy'. A common fear of ID cards is that, once everyone is supposed to own one, some government comes along and decrees that you must carry one at all times. Then the police are given powers to arrest anyone not carrying ID; and finally, to stop and search anyone on the suspicion that they are not carrying ID. Those fears are not "hysterical". Also: the novel 1981 was written about a future UK.

multjoy 5y ago
>A common fear of ID cards is that, once everyone is supposed to own one, some government comes along and decrees that you must carry one at all times. Then the police are given powers to arrest anyone not carrying ID; and finally, to stop and search anyone on the suspicion that they are not carrying ID. And can you point towards a European country that isn't in the grip of a totalitarian state where this currently happens? It's typical British exceptionalism, like unarmed police and Brexit. We'll massively inconvenience ourselves out of principle, while sensible populations look on in bemusement. >Also: the novel 1981 was written about a future UK. I'll assume that you mean 1984, which is fiction. Orwell, after all, was English and you would expect him to write political allegories based here.
- avianlyric 5y ago
  > It's typical British exceptionalism, like unarmed police and Brexit. Odd thing to get worked up about. Not sure why you link brining guns into a potential heated situation is gonna make it any better. Most police offers don’t even want to carry a gun, I certainly don’t want police officers carrying a gun. That got nothing to do with exceptionalism, I just think a police officers primary responsibility is to their community. We should rate them based on their ability to prevent crime through community relationships and diplomacy, not on their ability to rapidly deliver lethal amounts of lead into a situation. We should stand up for our principles, and try and build a society to thats a fair and equal as possible, regardless of an individual quirks and differences. We shouldn’t be aiming to create a uniform society just because it economically more efficient, and removes the need for the majority to think about the needs of the minority.
- denton-scratch 5y ago
  Yes, of course, 1984! He was expressing his fears about the future of the UK, because he was British (and of course, because he was projecting a future, it was fiction). You are quite right. > And can you point towards a European country that isn't in the grip of a totalitarian state where this currently happens? No, but there are several European countries that are essentially totalitarian at the moment; and there are several European countries that are not currently totalitarian, that have required people to carry ID on pain of arrest during my memory. It's a reasonable fear.
- slavboj 5y ago
  >And can you point towards a European country that isn't in the grip of a totalitarian state where this currently happens? Austria and Germany currently follow such a policy, strictly for the duration of the emergency of course.

avianlyric 5y ago

> We need, as a society, an ID document. In the UK, we end up making it up through the use of a passport/DL and a combination of various other official letters. A voluntary national ID could be useful, something that effectively the same as a driving licence, but available to all U.K. residents without cost. Not sure I agree we _need_ it, existing documents work surprisingly well. > Young adults end up carrying their passports just so they can prove their age to go drinking - do you not see that this is a problem? They can get a provisional driving licence instead, it cheaper than a passport. There’s also no requirement to use an in-date passport. Bars and pubs will happy accept an expired passport with it corner snipped, as long as the photo is recognisable. > idea that an ID card is somehow anti-democratic is ridiculous and, frankly, far fetched. I never made this claim. Democracies are just as capable of committing atrocities as totalitarian states, they just tend to do less frequently and with better PR. I personally think people should think seriously about who they hand their identity data too, examine what benefits it might provide, but also consider how it could be abused in the future. I like the fact that most databases in the U.K. are difficult to integrate because there’s no clear single identifier for a person, joining data requires a degree of fuzzy matching and creates opportunities to challenge government agencies. > Fraud, in the UK, takes place on an industrial scale. I’m well aware of the scale of fraud in the U.K., I’ve spent years developing systems to prevent it, and run full on into the issues caused by a lack of national ID. However I still believe the trade-off is worth it. I’ve seen to many examples private organisations effectively running a shadow judicial system that can prevent and individual from accessing essentials societal services, like banking, with no oversight or appeals process. A national ID would just make it easier to build these systems, and innocent people who get caught up will pay the price (for a fraudster, getting caught is just the cost of business, they go in with their eyes wide open). The ultimate goal of society is not to produce the most efficient economic system. There are trade-offs to be made, and achieving zero fraud is far more problematic that having some fraud.

multjoy 5y ago
>existing documents work surprisingly well Not really. A passport is expensive, a drivers licence isn't supposed to be a photo ID card and someone shouldn't have to pretend to be a driver in order to obtain one. >They can get a provisional driving licence instead, it cheaper than a passport. There’s also no requirement to use an in-date passport. Bars and pubs will happy accept an expired passport with it corner snipped, as long as the photo is recognisable. Some bars might. Others may not. In any case, you've still got to a passport in the first place, so that doesn't remove the renewal cost or the initial cost. It's also a multi-page book. If we're going to run a provisional DL as a de-facto ID card, why not just have an ID card? >I’ve seen to many examples private organisations effectively running a shadow judicial system that can prevent and individual from accessing essentials societal services, like banking, with no oversight or appeals process. A national ID would just make it easier to build these systems If you're verifying someone's ID at all then those issues are going to exist. That's not a problem with having an ID card, that's a systems problem - if you use a DL, there's a URN. If you use a passport, there's a URN. Not having a national ID card is, frankly, Stone Age. If you want to avoid the spectre of Papiere, Bitte then that is a legislative problem and not a technical one.

kwhitefoot 5y ago

We don't have a compulsory ID card here in Norway either.