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It's no wonder that ID fraud is so rampant in countries like the US and UK in comparison to countries like Norway that have a national ID service (BankID). The

It's no wonder that ID fraud is so rampant in countries like the US and UK in comparison to countries like Norway that have a national ID service (BankID). There is no way that my Norwegian bank would accept a utility bill as any kind of support of ID. Instead they send a letter to my registered address (national population register) with instructions to take it and my driving license or passport to the post office who will act as a notary and report to the bank that I am the person that the letter is addressed to. From then on BankID (using a one time pad, SIM card, or code generator) can be used to log in to pretty much all banks and government services.

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k4rli 5y ago
BankID with a digitally signed utility bill should be enough for AML/KYC. I was developing one fintech app recently and I never heard of this requirement.
- kwhitefoot 5y ago
  If I use BankID why would I also need to supply a utility bill? Or are you using the term BankID in some generic sense? BankID is the name of a company that provides a service of the same name: https://www.bankid.no/en/private/ https://www.bankid.no/en/private/
avianlyric 5y ago
Norway is a bit unusual in the way it handles ID. In many parts of the world (including the US & U.K.) the idea of central government holding an accessible database of everyone’s identifies, and mandating participation, is cultural and political suicide. We can argue all day about whether or not this is a good idea. But ultimately, it’s red lines we’ve drawn in the ground, and we’ve decided the trade off (such as identity theft) is worth it. In the U.K. at least, two World Wars have taught us to be wary of central government databases. We’ve seen how they can be abused people in power seeking to persecute part of a population, and even now we’re seeing it again with the U.K.s governments persecution of migrants. At least in the U.K. there are clear and simple guidelines for undoing the damage caused by identity theft. If a bank account or loan was opened in your name, the bank has to close it and write off any losses, and they should compensate you for the trouble. If the mess you around, there’s a number of Ombudsmen and regulators filled with people waiting to take the financial organisation to task and make them really regret their obstinance (I’ve been on the receiving end of their wrath, it’s not much fun). All of this creates very strong incentive for banks to prevent identity theft in the U.K. Unfortunately US consumer protection is lacking in comparison.
- TomSwirly 5y ago
  > In many parts of the world (including the US & U.K.) the idea of central government holding an accessible database of everyone’s identifies, and mandating participation, is cultural and political suicide. That's because the US and the UK are mentally ill cultures actually engaged in cultural and political suicide, so any practical, useful ideas like that are considered suspect. > Unfortunately US consumer protection is lacking in comparison. That's what happens when a whole country decided to mistrust their elected government and instead put their faith in corporations.
- felixhammerl 5y ago
  I find it strange that folks in the US and UK, given that these are championing modern dragnet surveillance, would recoil at the idea of government issued ID, thus forcing everyone to come up with error-prone workarounds enabling identity fraud. As a German, the idea of a bill proving anything at all is just wild.
  - avianlyric 5y ago
    > the idea of a bill proving anything at all is just wild. It’s a little more complicated than that. KYC requirements aren’t that lax, but there are multiple ways of proving ID. Proof of address in the form of a bill is just one of many components that are used in tandem to prove identity. Rest assured you can’t open a bank account with just a utility bill.
  - zahllos 5y ago
    It makes no sense, but this: > In many parts of the world (including the US & U.K.) the idea of central government holding an accessible database of everyone’s identifies, and mandating participation, is cultural and political suicide. Is a very true statement. I am British but I live in Switzerland. If I want to do anything here, I send a copy of my residency permit. Bank statements wouldn't count. The UK actually did experiment with ID cards under the Blair/Brown government. I never had one, they were only issued in a trial area. There was a campaign against it: https://www.no2id.net/ https://www.no2id.net/ and the Cameron government (2010-brexit) scrapped the ID cards. The law was: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Identity_Cards_Act_2006 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Identity_Cards_Act_2006 . One of the main objections was to the national identity register, which would contain biometrics and not need the card in order to query. I'm on the fence about this. On the one hand, I'm not sure I trust the UK government to run any kind of IT scheme - they tend to pick huge consultancies, waste enormous sums of money and the result is late, 6x the price and doesn't actually work. Also the biometrics thing seems excessive. On the other hand, there are plenty of centralised databases already and if you ever want to drive a car, at least one of them prints out an ID-0 sized card with your photo on it. I would also, honestly, prefer an identity card over proving my identity with easily forged bank statements.
Aachen 5y ago
> There is no way that my Norwegian bank would accept a utility bill as any kind of support of ID. It's not ID, it's proof of address, separate from proving identity afaik. Mtgox wanted to see ID, but because my ID doesn't say my address they also needed some somewhat official letter addressed to me on this address.
- cywick 5y ago
  Well, it's not really proof of address either because it's so easy to forge, which was OP's main point.

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k4rli 5y ago

BankID with a digitally signed utility bill should be enough for AML/KYC. I was developing one fintech app recently and I never heard of this requirement.

kwhitefoot 5y ago
If I use BankID why would I also need to supply a utility bill? Or are you using the term BankID in some generic sense? BankID is the name of a company that provides a service of the same name: https://www.bankid.no/en/private/ https://www.bankid.no/en/private/

avianlyric 5y ago

Norway is a bit unusual in the way it handles ID. In many parts of the world (including the US & U.K.) the idea of central government holding an accessible database of everyone’s identifies, and mandating participation, is cultural and political suicide. We can argue all day about whether or not this is a good idea. But ultimately, it’s red lines we’ve drawn in the ground, and we’ve decided the trade off (such as identity theft) is worth it. In the U.K. at least, two World Wars have taught us to be wary of central government databases. We’ve seen how they can be abused people in power seeking to persecute part of a population, and even now we’re seeing it again with the U.K.s governments persecution of migrants. At least in the U.K. there are clear and simple guidelines for undoing the damage caused by identity theft. If a bank account or loan was opened in your name, the bank has to close it and write off any losses, and they should compensate you for the trouble. If the mess you around, there’s a number of Ombudsmen and regulators filled with people waiting to take the financial organisation to task and make them really regret their obstinance (I’ve been on the receiving end of their wrath, it’s not much fun). All of this creates very strong incentive for banks to prevent identity theft in the U.K. Unfortunately US consumer protection is lacking in comparison.

TomSwirly 5y ago
> In many parts of the world (including the US & U.K.) the idea of central government holding an accessible database of everyone’s identifies, and mandating participation, is cultural and political suicide. That's because the US and the UK are mentally ill cultures actually engaged in cultural and political suicide, so any practical, useful ideas like that are considered suspect. > Unfortunately US consumer protection is lacking in comparison. That's what happens when a whole country decided to mistrust their elected government and instead put their faith in corporations.
felixhammerl 5y ago
I find it strange that folks in the US and UK, given that these are championing modern dragnet surveillance, would recoil at the idea of government issued ID, thus forcing everyone to come up with error-prone workarounds enabling identity fraud. As a German, the idea of a bill proving anything at all is just wild.
- avianlyric 5y ago
  > the idea of a bill proving anything at all is just wild. It’s a little more complicated than that. KYC requirements aren’t that lax, but there are multiple ways of proving ID. Proof of address in the form of a bill is just one of many components that are used in tandem to prove identity. Rest assured you can’t open a bank account with just a utility bill.
- zahllos 5y ago
  It makes no sense, but this: > In many parts of the world (including the US & U.K.) the idea of central government holding an accessible database of everyone’s identifies, and mandating participation, is cultural and political suicide. Is a very true statement. I am British but I live in Switzerland. If I want to do anything here, I send a copy of my residency permit. Bank statements wouldn't count. The UK actually did experiment with ID cards under the Blair/Brown government. I never had one, they were only issued in a trial area. There was a campaign against it: https://www.no2id.net/ https://www.no2id.net/ and the Cameron government (2010-brexit) scrapped the ID cards. The law was: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Identity_Cards_Act_2006 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Identity_Cards_Act_2006 . One of the main objections was to the national identity register, which would contain biometrics and not need the card in order to query. I'm on the fence about this. On the one hand, I'm not sure I trust the UK government to run any kind of IT scheme - they tend to pick huge consultancies, waste enormous sums of money and the result is late, 6x the price and doesn't actually work. Also the biometrics thing seems excessive. On the other hand, there are plenty of centralised databases already and if you ever want to drive a car, at least one of them prints out an ID-0 sized card with your photo on it. I would also, honestly, prefer an identity card over proving my identity with easily forged bank statements.

Aachen 5y ago

> There is no way that my Norwegian bank would accept a utility bill as any kind of support of ID. It's not ID, it's proof of address, separate from proving identity afaik. Mtgox wanted to see ID, but because my ID doesn't say my address they also needed some somewhat official letter addressed to me on this address.

cywick 5y ago
Well, it's not really proof of address either because it's so easy to forge, which was OP's main point.