5 ms·

What are things Quake did wrong? Were they wrong for their time, wrong in hindsight, or wrong in the long run?

klodolph 5y ago
I don't want to head too deep into the "wrong for their time" versus "wrong in hindsight" calculations, because it turns into a game of "pretend it's 1996" Things Quake did "wrong" mostly boil down to game design and level design problems. Most base levels and episode 4 suffer from various problems... poor layout, inconsistently sized spaces, samey areas, unnecessary teleporters, too many corridors, overuse of traps, under-lit areas, etc. Chthon is boring. Shub-Niggurath is obtuse. Vore missiles track too perfectly. Spawn (the blobs that explode) are just no fun. Ammo balance could be a lot better (e.g. Ogres give you grenades). Weapon balance could stand some tweaks (e.g. between the two nailguns). I think a lot of these problems could have been fixed if Quake had been less rushed--but may not have been fixed. The development team had a bunch of ideas for Quake that were questionable. Quake 2 was worse in many ways, except when it came to multiplayer and the mod scene. The Quake 2 engine fixed so many of the technical problems with the Quake engine, but the game is saddled with an awful story, and some of the slight slant towards more "realism" in Q2 level design did it a major disservice. Various Quake 1 mods address balance issues, and the single-player maps you can find these days are simply phenomenal. Some of them would not have been possible in 1996 (like Tears of the False God in Arcane Dimensions) but then there are level packs like DOPA which just seem like, well, better levels, and there are mods like Copper which directly address various game design issues. So I think it's interesting to ask "What did Quake do right, so that in spite of its flaws, people still like it?" I think that it's an enjoyable game as a game, not just as a retro game you play for nostalgia.
- ChuckNorris89 5y ago
  >Things Quake did "wrong" mostly boil down to game design and level design problems. This was a reflection of the issues and internal squabbles ID Software had at the time, especially between John Carmack, the (in)famous programmer, and John Romero, the (in)famous game designer. The story goes that John Carmack tore down walls at ID offices to keep an eye on everyone since John Romero was just coming at work to slack off and play games all day instead of working on Quake, and the other employees were burned out and irate by John Carmack's iron-fist leadership and working style. That's pretty much the epitome of toxic work environments. I'm surprised that Quake came out as good as it did, all things considered. >The Quake 2 engine fixed so many of the technical problems with the Quake engine, but the game is saddled with an awful story After John Romero left and they lost their top game designer, ID Software's released games were basically tech demos to showcase John Carmack's cutting edge 3D engine tech wrapped up in some improv story so they could be sold as games.
  - klodolph 5y ago
    I think the interpersonal problems are overplayed and don’t really explain much. Quake was rushed. 3D level design was in its infancy.
    - ChuckNorris89 5y ago
      Well that's more of a limitation of what PCs could do at the time. Large levels full of monsters like Doom had in 2D, could not be handled in 3D even by the high end PCs at the time so that's why the design direction was so different and did not age well.
      - Jach 5y ago
        Masters of Doom mentions how some of the early design was based around a D&D campaign Carmack made and they all played. The modern game Amid Evil really struck me as what Quake could have been without its design compromises due to technical limitations and "rush" (more like, they couldn't believe it was taking so long, it turned things toxic, they needed to get it out and be done). AE really nails the swords&sorcery-style fantasy elements whereas Quake only really hints at them (though the more contemporary Hexen series did them a lot better too).
        bentcorner 5y ago
        I remember reading about Quake before it was released, and I recall that it was going for a much slower pace. Melee combat and 1v1 fights were the focus, and environments felt very dark and moody. Not sure if that was a piece of fan-fiction or whatever, this was ~30 years ago so my memory is very fuzzy. It was also passed around in the BBS days so who knows the veracity of what I read. I imagine this document has been lost to time. I was a little disappointed at the final release that I didn't get the above but it was nevertheless extremely cool.
        bitwize 5y ago
        Yeah, Quake was supposed to be their RPG in development, The Fight for Justice. "You start off as Quake, the strongest, most dangerous person on the continent." Your character in The Fight for Justice was supposed to start off with a Thor-like hammer and a ring of protection. They tried to carry forth the combat with the hammer into the final Quake game, making it a more melee-focused thing albeit with the ability to shoot thunderbolts or other magic and cause shockwaves by striking the ground with the hammer, etc. They found it didn't work, and they all just wanted to play with more Doom-like guns anyway. The hammer may have become the Axe and Lightning Gun weapons in the final game.
- everdrive 5y ago
  >and episode 4 This is where my playthroughs really grind to a halt. episode 4's levels were primarily designed by Sandy Peterson, who is also responsible for some of Doom 2's more infamous levels. He seems to like very large, difficult to navigate levels with painful traps. It's in total contrast to the tight, iconic levels of episode 1.
  - Synaesthesia 5y ago
    Yeah they were pretty brutal! Like the difficulty is somewhat frustrating, but I actuslly thought they had some clever architechture and puzzles.
paavohtl 5y ago
I did not play Quake 1 at the time (mainly because I was not quite born yet), but I've played bits of in the past decade and this year I've played and modded it a ton, thanks in part to the remaster. I think it's all of those ways to some extent. The base game has quite a few bugs and arbitrary limitations which could have been fixed at the time. For example: - While the player movement feels generally amazing even to this day, it doesn't handle ramps that well: the player slowly slides down when on even the slightest of inclines, and jumping while standing on any angled surface has unpredictable consequences. - The NPCs are really dumb (they basically move randomly until they see an enemy), which is not a huge problem in itself, but they also get stuck on level geometry and each other really easily unless the level is carefully designed so that enemies are never packed too closely together. I was working on a custom level where I wanted a pack of dogs to attack from a sewer pipe, but I had to abandon the idea as the dogs require as much vertical space as the player in order to move, which does not match their visuals. There are also some game design issues which are maybe more clear in hindsight. For instance, many of the enemies don't choreograph their attacks very well, which combined with instant hitscan attacks makes some fights feel unfair. But the biggest issue I have with the game is that while basic gameplay is great, in my opinion there isn't just enough variety to keep the game constantly interesting for 4 chapters (and ten thousand custom maps). There are surprisingly few weapon and enemy types, and many of the weapons are just direct upgrades. The issue is compounded by the fact level scripting and interactivity is surprisingly limited in the base game without mods. This results in most standard Quake maps having basically exactly the same gameplay, just in different (and oftentimes beautifully designed) environments. Maybe I'm just spoilt by Half-Life and its sequels and imitators. But despite all this I think it is excellent for a game from 1996. With more time in the oven it could have been even better, but what we have now is still an enjoyable game, especially with literally decades of open source development and modding.
- Synaesthesia 5y ago
  Yes but it caused a revolution in gaming which other studios were able to work off of and refine, eg Half Life. But at the time, there was truly nothing like it, with its full 3D, which is harder to develop for but clearly was the future of gaming. You have to look at what was available at the time, basicly doom clones and the build engine.

I don't want to head too deep into the "wrong for their time" versus "wrong in hindsight" calculations, because it turns into a game of "pretend it's 1996" Things Quake did "wrong" mostly boil down to game design and level design problems. Most base levels and episode 4 suffer from various problems... poor layout, inconsistently sized spaces, samey areas, unnecessary teleporters, too many corridors, overuse of traps, under-lit areas, etc. Chthon is boring. Shub-Niggurath is obtuse. Vore missiles track too perfectly. Spawn (the blobs that explode) are just no fun. Ammo balance could be a lot better (e.g. Ogres give you grenades). Weapon balance could stand some tweaks (e.g. between the two nailguns). I think a lot of these problems could have been fixed if Quake had been less rushed--but may not have been fixed. The development team had a bunch of ideas for Quake that were questionable. Quake 2 was worse in many ways, except when it came to multiplayer and the mod scene. The Quake 2 engine fixed so many of the technical problems with the Quake engine, but the game is saddled with an awful story, and some of the slight slant towards more "realism" in Q2 level design did it a major disservice. Various Quake 1 mods address balance issues, and the single-player maps you can find these days are simply phenomenal. Some of them would not have been possible in 1996 (like Tears of the False God in Arcane Dimensions) but then there are level packs like DOPA which just seem like, well, better levels, and there are mods like Copper which directly address various game design issues. So I think it's interesting to ask "What did Quake do right, so that in spite of its flaws, people still like it?" I think that it's an enjoyable game as a game, not just as a retro game you play for nostalgia.

ChuckNorris89 5y ago
>Things Quake did "wrong" mostly boil down to game design and level design problems. This was a reflection of the issues and internal squabbles ID Software had at the time, especially between John Carmack, the (in)famous programmer, and John Romero, the (in)famous game designer. The story goes that John Carmack tore down walls at ID offices to keep an eye on everyone since John Romero was just coming at work to slack off and play games all day instead of working on Quake, and the other employees were burned out and irate by John Carmack's iron-fist leadership and working style. That's pretty much the epitome of toxic work environments. I'm surprised that Quake came out as good as it did, all things considered. >The Quake 2 engine fixed so many of the technical problems with the Quake engine, but the game is saddled with an awful story After John Romero left and they lost their top game designer, ID Software's released games were basically tech demos to showcase John Carmack's cutting edge 3D engine tech wrapped up in some improv story so they could be sold as games.
- klodolph 5y ago
  I think the interpersonal problems are overplayed and don’t really explain much. Quake was rushed. 3D level design was in its infancy.
  - ChuckNorris89 5y ago
    Well that's more of a limitation of what PCs could do at the time. Large levels full of monsters like Doom had in 2D, could not be handled in 3D even by the high end PCs at the time so that's why the design direction was so different and did not age well.
    - Jach 5y ago
      Masters of Doom mentions how some of the early design was based around a D&D campaign Carmack made and they all played. The modern game Amid Evil really struck me as what Quake could have been without its design compromises due to technical limitations and "rush" (more like, they couldn't believe it was taking so long, it turned things toxic, they needed to get it out and be done). AE really nails the swords&sorcery-style fantasy elements whereas Quake only really hints at them (though the more contemporary Hexen series did them a lot better too).
      - bentcorner 5y ago
        I remember reading about Quake before it was released, and I recall that it was going for a much slower pace. Melee combat and 1v1 fights were the focus, and environments felt very dark and moody. Not sure if that was a piece of fan-fiction or whatever, this was ~30 years ago so my memory is very fuzzy. It was also passed around in the BBS days so who knows the veracity of what I read. I imagine this document has been lost to time. I was a little disappointed at the final release that I didn't get the above but it was nevertheless extremely cool.
        bitwize 5y ago
        Yeah, Quake was supposed to be their RPG in development, The Fight for Justice. "You start off as Quake, the strongest, most dangerous person on the continent." Your character in The Fight for Justice was supposed to start off with a Thor-like hammer and a ring of protection. They tried to carry forth the combat with the hammer into the final Quake game, making it a more melee-focused thing albeit with the ability to shoot thunderbolts or other magic and cause shockwaves by striking the ground with the hammer, etc. They found it didn't work, and they all just wanted to play with more Doom-like guns anyway. The hammer may have become the Axe and Lightning Gun weapons in the final game.
everdrive 5y ago
>and episode 4 This is where my playthroughs really grind to a halt. episode 4's levels were primarily designed by Sandy Peterson, who is also responsible for some of Doom 2's more infamous levels. He seems to like very large, difficult to navigate levels with painful traps. It's in total contrast to the tight, iconic levels of episode 1.
- Synaesthesia 5y ago
  Yeah they were pretty brutal! Like the difficulty is somewhat frustrating, but I actuslly thought they had some clever architechture and puzzles.

paavohtl 5y ago

I did not play Quake 1 at the time (mainly because I was not quite born yet), but I've played bits of in the past decade and this year I've played and modded it a ton, thanks in part to the remaster. I think it's all of those ways to some extent. The base game has quite a few bugs and arbitrary limitations which could have been fixed at the time. For example: - While the player movement feels generally amazing even to this day, it doesn't handle ramps that well: the player slowly slides down when on even the slightest of inclines, and jumping while standing on any angled surface has unpredictable consequences. - The NPCs are really dumb (they basically move randomly until they see an enemy), which is not a huge problem in itself, but they also get stuck on level geometry and each other really easily unless the level is carefully designed so that enemies are never packed too closely together. I was working on a custom level where I wanted a pack of dogs to attack from a sewer pipe, but I had to abandon the idea as the dogs require as much vertical space as the player in order to move, which does not match their visuals. There are also some game design issues which are maybe more clear in hindsight. For instance, many of the enemies don't choreograph their attacks very well, which combined with instant hitscan attacks makes some fights feel unfair. But the biggest issue I have with the game is that while basic gameplay is great, in my opinion there isn't just enough variety to keep the game constantly interesting for 4 chapters (and ten thousand custom maps). There are surprisingly few weapon and enemy types, and many of the weapons are just direct upgrades. The issue is compounded by the fact level scripting and interactivity is surprisingly limited in the base game without mods. This results in most standard Quake maps having basically exactly the same gameplay, just in different (and oftentimes beautifully designed) environments. Maybe I'm just spoilt by Half-Life and its sequels and imitators. But despite all this I think it is excellent for a game from 1996. With more time in the oven it could have been even better, but what we have now is still an enjoyable game, especially with literally decades of open source development and modding.

Synaesthesia 5y ago
Yes but it caused a revolution in gaming which other studios were able to work off of and refine, eg Half Life. But at the time, there was truly nothing like it, with its full 3D, which is harder to develop for but clearly was the future of gaming. You have to look at what was available at the time, basicly doom clones and the build engine.