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This comment is refuting a point I did not make. By all means, please continue to use Rust in the domains in which you think it excels but no matter how much we

This comment is refuting a point I did not make. By all means, please continue to use Rust in the domains in which you think it excels but no matter how much we agree that there exists domains in which Rust excels it remains true that language evangelism is not very interesting relative to higher level and more general purpose engineering concepts and principles. Well, that is unless you actually prefer evangelism to more substantive technical content.

atoav 5y ago
> Centering language choice as the causal factor for any engineering project signals poor discipline in engineering. This is the point I argued against. If the way you do mathematic calculations in your bridge design repeatedly produces fatal flaws, it is indeed poor engineering if you keep that system. Using tooling that allows you to e.g. produce buffer overflows and blaming a "poor discipline in engineering" is the kind of quote you can read from the engineers that built the biggest collapsing civil structures in history. The best design of a system is the simplest design that gets you there, while preventing all errors that you can make on the way. And a programming language is always part of that system. This is why comment is also not about Rust it is more about recognizing languages as part of the engineering you are doing.
- CyberRabbi 5y ago
  Language choice certainly is correlated with certain aspects of the outcome of a project but I continue to hold that it is not a causal factor. Causal factors would be the quality of the team involved, the resources they were allotted, the requirements that were imposed on them, in that order. E.g. you cannot expect an incompetent and resource-starved team with a poorly specified project to produce a good outcome simply because they were forced to work in Rust (or any language). Language choice is incidental, not causal. In my experience, anyone who has operated otherwise has failed every single time.
  - adgjlsfhk1 5y ago
    languages can't be a casual factor of success, but can be a casual factor of failure. if you write an OS in JavaScript, that will cause it to be slow. if you write an OS in C, that will cause it to have bigger overflows and use after free bugs.
    - CyberRabbi 5y ago
      > if you write an OS in JavaScript, that will cause it to be slow. if you write an OS in C, that will cause it to have bigger overflows and use after free bugs A good team will use these languages in that domain in ways that these effects are limited. There is an appropriate place for JavaScript and C.
      - adgjlsfhk1 5y ago
        And yet https://www.cvedetails.com/vendor/33/Linux.html https://www.cvedetails.com/vendor/33/Linux.html
        CyberRabbi 5y ago
        And yet what? What point are you refuting?

atoav 5y ago

> Centering language choice as the causal factor for any engineering project signals poor discipline in engineering. This is the point I argued against. If the way you do mathematic calculations in your bridge design repeatedly produces fatal flaws, it is indeed poor engineering if you keep that system. Using tooling that allows you to e.g. produce buffer overflows and blaming a "poor discipline in engineering" is the kind of quote you can read from the engineers that built the biggest collapsing civil structures in history. The best design of a system is the simplest design that gets you there, while preventing all errors that you can make on the way. And a programming language is always part of that system. This is why comment is also not about Rust it is more about recognizing languages as part of the engineering you are doing.

CyberRabbi 5y ago
Language choice certainly is correlated with certain aspects of the outcome of a project but I continue to hold that it is not a causal factor. Causal factors would be the quality of the team involved, the resources they were allotted, the requirements that were imposed on them, in that order. E.g. you cannot expect an incompetent and resource-starved team with a poorly specified project to produce a good outcome simply because they were forced to work in Rust (or any language). Language choice is incidental, not causal. In my experience, anyone who has operated otherwise has failed every single time.
- adgjlsfhk1 5y ago
  languages can't be a casual factor of success, but can be a casual factor of failure. if you write an OS in JavaScript, that will cause it to be slow. if you write an OS in C, that will cause it to have bigger overflows and use after free bugs.
  - CyberRabbi 5y ago
    > if you write an OS in JavaScript, that will cause it to be slow. if you write an OS in C, that will cause it to have bigger overflows and use after free bugs A good team will use these languages in that domain in ways that these effects are limited. There is an appropriate place for JavaScript and C.
    - adgjlsfhk1 5y ago
      And yet https://www.cvedetails.com/vendor/33/Linux.html https://www.cvedetails.com/vendor/33/Linux.html
      - CyberRabbi 5y ago
        And yet what? What point are you refuting?