4 ms·

Arm seems poised to replace x86 in servers. If I were Intel this would make me really nervous.

by pm90 5y ago

taf2 5y ago
Possibly on the desktop too... I imagine we'll see many m1 like windows pc options in the near future...
- ta988 5y ago
  They are coming. Clearly not as impressive as the latest m1 max and pro, but getting there.
betaby 5y ago
Very unlikely. See for example Linus reasoning https://www.realworldtech.com/forum/?threadid=183440&curpostid=183486 https://www.realworldtech.com/forum/?threadid=183440&curpost...
- nichch 5y ago
  Unlikely for now. The ball has just started rolling with the M1.
- faeriechangling 5y ago
  Linus's reasoning is sound, but the issue is that ARM development platforms are becoming a thing and to be honest I see x86 as being in the early stages of a death spiral and so does Intel the way they're focusing on the fabrication side of their business. If anything programmers are adopting ARM based computers faster than the rest of the market. As pretty much every developer tool gets ported for Apple silicon every company is going to shrug and go "May as well release an ARM Windows/ARM Linux build as well".
  - vineyardmike 5y ago
    I totally agree with everything you said except that devs are switching faster. I think first to switch was low end chrome books and surface go type devices. M1 is pulling the devs and professionals in, and gaming will be the last holdout (due to optimized IP that may be abandonware and never updated).
  - ta988 5y ago
    The good thing I see at work is that we all make everything work for x86 and arm. So we can deploy on any kind of cloud platform cpu and not worry about that anymore.
- dilyevsky 5y ago
  1. Fewer and fewer people run their stack on the laptop. There is tooling today to run even unit tests remotely pretty painlessly like bazel (and the like) and docker 2. With languages like java, go, python, node it doesn’t even matter 3. Devs are migrating to arm en masse (M1s)
  - ta988 5y ago
    Agree with 1. I'm part of 3. Regarding 2, it does matter for anything that has bits of optimized c code that was only done for x86. I have a lot of Node and Python things that don't run on my M1 natively (they even crash on qemu x86 vms whatever the kind of cpu features I emulate).
    - dilyevsky 5y ago
      Right which highlights why C is an outdated language that didn’t fully live up to its original promise. Linus’s entire argument seems to hinge on the premise that most userland devs still use it as their primary language. Eventually those python and node bugs will get fixed and people will largely not care
- jeffreyrogers 5y ago
  Linus's argument is that devs will use the same processors in production that they develop on. But everyone already has to develop for ARM because mobile runs ARM. And now the M1 Macs do too (and these AWS servers). So if you're forced to use ARM because of mobile and now there are good options for desktop and servers to use ARM as well, I don't see why people wouldn't switch to them. Basically Linus's own logic seems to contradict his claim.
- solatic 5y ago
  We've been migrating our production to Graviton2 (now Graviton3). Our developers run x86 Macs. Everything runs on the JVM, Python, Node, Go, so nobody feels like there's a difference. The ARM transition has been transparent for us. Linus' reasoning makes sense, but the real world disagrees with him (at least in our case).
- vlovich123 5y ago
  I think the flaw in Linus’ argument is that this happened in the 90s-2010s for x86. A foundational time, especially for his worldview, but I don’t know that the pattern repeats (some of his viewpoint is colored by his time at Transmeta). The development world today looks very different. Back then, language support for other architectures was more bespoke and CPU vendors had to add support for their chips. Today, there are plenty of very rich, platform-agnostic (both CPU and OS) libraries. Additionally, mobile development has sufficiently matured ARM development that I don’t think that argument holds. If it did, then developers wouldn’t be able to develop on their x86 MacBooks and deploy to their mobile Apple devices (yes it’s ARM now but it hasn’t been for the majority). I think the plain x86-box -> server story is pretty solid for but the cloud has changed that. Everyone is now starting out in the cloud with CPU-agnostic languages where switching architectures usually is as simple as changing 1 line in a config. In some cases it matters but the vast majority of SW dev shops don’t feel this like you used to in the 90s and 00s. Plus M1s now provide developers with local ARM development.
- _ph_ 5y ago
  That is, as far as the reasoning applies, why I consider the M1 Macs so pivotal. The MB Pro already was a very popular machine for developers. Now it not only got much faster and better, it also offers access to great ARM development machines. Be it for the largest market, smartphones, or for the cloud solutions based on ARM machines as the Graviton.
jeffreyrogers 5y ago
5 or 6 years ago Marc Andreesen was saying this would happen eventually. I was skeptical when I first heard the claim, but it's seeming more and more likely.
freemint 5y ago
Don't forget Ampere's A1 i found them really, really impressive for SAT solving and that you can get them at 1ct/core/hour at Orcale makes them really financially attractive.

Arm seems poised to replace x86 in servers. If I were Intel this would make me really nervous.

by pm90 5y ago

Arm seems poised to replace x86 in servers. If I were Intel this would make me really nervous.

taf2 5y ago

Possibly on the desktop too... I imagine we'll see many m1 like windows pc options in the near future...

ta988 5y ago
They are coming. Clearly not as impressive as the latest m1 max and pro, but getting there.

betaby 5y ago

Very unlikely. See for example Linus reasoning https://www.realworldtech.com/forum/?threadid=183440&curpostid=183486 https://www.realworldtech.com/forum/?threadid=183440&curpost...

nichch 5y ago
Unlikely for now. The ball has just started rolling with the M1.
faeriechangling 5y ago
Linus's reasoning is sound, but the issue is that ARM development platforms are becoming a thing and to be honest I see x86 as being in the early stages of a death spiral and so does Intel the way they're focusing on the fabrication side of their business. If anything programmers are adopting ARM based computers faster than the rest of the market. As pretty much every developer tool gets ported for Apple silicon every company is going to shrug and go "May as well release an ARM Windows/ARM Linux build as well".
- vineyardmike 5y ago
  I totally agree with everything you said except that devs are switching faster. I think first to switch was low end chrome books and surface go type devices. M1 is pulling the devs and professionals in, and gaming will be the last holdout (due to optimized IP that may be abandonware and never updated).
- ta988 5y ago
  The good thing I see at work is that we all make everything work for x86 and arm. So we can deploy on any kind of cloud platform cpu and not worry about that anymore.
dilyevsky 5y ago
1. Fewer and fewer people run their stack on the laptop. There is tooling today to run even unit tests remotely pretty painlessly like bazel (and the like) and docker 2. With languages like java, go, python, node it doesn’t even matter 3. Devs are migrating to arm en masse (M1s)
- ta988 5y ago
  Agree with 1. I'm part of 3. Regarding 2, it does matter for anything that has bits of optimized c code that was only done for x86. I have a lot of Node and Python things that don't run on my M1 natively (they even crash on qemu x86 vms whatever the kind of cpu features I emulate).
  - dilyevsky 5y ago
    Right which highlights why C is an outdated language that didn’t fully live up to its original promise. Linus’s entire argument seems to hinge on the premise that most userland devs still use it as their primary language. Eventually those python and node bugs will get fixed and people will largely not care
jeffreyrogers 5y ago
Linus's argument is that devs will use the same processors in production that they develop on. But everyone already has to develop for ARM because mobile runs ARM. And now the M1 Macs do too (and these AWS servers). So if you're forced to use ARM because of mobile and now there are good options for desktop and servers to use ARM as well, I don't see why people wouldn't switch to them. Basically Linus's own logic seems to contradict his claim.
solatic 5y ago
We've been migrating our production to Graviton2 (now Graviton3). Our developers run x86 Macs. Everything runs on the JVM, Python, Node, Go, so nobody feels like there's a difference. The ARM transition has been transparent for us. Linus' reasoning makes sense, but the real world disagrees with him (at least in our case).
vlovich123 5y ago
I think the flaw in Linus’ argument is that this happened in the 90s-2010s for x86. A foundational time, especially for his worldview, but I don’t know that the pattern repeats (some of his viewpoint is colored by his time at Transmeta). The development world today looks very different. Back then, language support for other architectures was more bespoke and CPU vendors had to add support for their chips. Today, there are plenty of very rich, platform-agnostic (both CPU and OS) libraries. Additionally, mobile development has sufficiently matured ARM development that I don’t think that argument holds. If it did, then developers wouldn’t be able to develop on their x86 MacBooks and deploy to their mobile Apple devices (yes it’s ARM now but it hasn’t been for the majority). I think the plain x86-box -> server story is pretty solid for but the cloud has changed that. Everyone is now starting out in the cloud with CPU-agnostic languages where switching architectures usually is as simple as changing 1 line in a config. In some cases it matters but the vast majority of SW dev shops don’t feel this like you used to in the 90s and 00s. Plus M1s now provide developers with local ARM development.
_ph_ 5y ago
That is, as far as the reasoning applies, why I consider the M1 Macs so pivotal. The MB Pro already was a very popular machine for developers. Now it not only got much faster and better, it also offers access to great ARM development machines. Be it for the largest market, smartphones, or for the cloud solutions based on ARM machines as the Graviton.

jeffreyrogers 5y ago

5 or 6 years ago Marc Andreesen was saying this would happen eventually. I was skeptical when I first heard the claim, but it's seeming more and more likely.

freemint 5y ago

Don't forget Ampere's A1 i found them really, really impressive for SAT solving and that you can get them at 1ct/core/hour at Orcale makes them really financially attractive.