4 ms·

Mythbusters RFID episode axed after 'pressure' from credit card firms

35 points by astrec 18y ago

noor420 18y ago
Does this mean hackers will be RFID-Driving for my credit card info?
- incomethax 18y ago
  well, when its this easy it gets concerning... http://tv.boingboing.net/2008/03/19/how-to-hack-an-rfide.html http://tv.boingboing.net/2008/03/19/how-to-hack-an-rfide.htm...
- noodle 18y ago
  yeah, you can already do that. i can't find a link to the experiment, but i saw something on rfid wardriving and hacking that involved setting up a node near gas station rfid payment nodules (similar to how ATM hackers set up fake fronts on the card insertions), intercepting the information that can get cracked or copied for use.
deleted 18y ago
[deleted]
evgen 18y ago
This particular "myth" has already been busted. Looks like El Reg is a running a bit behind the new of the day: http://www.networkworld.com/community/node/32254 http://www.networkworld.com/community/node/32254
- tlrobinson 18y ago
  Sounds like he got in a little trouble with Discovery for blaming them.
- hbien 18y ago
  "Adam Savage's widely circulated YouTube video account of a pack of credit card industry giants pummeling Discovery Channel into deep-sixing a Mythbusters investigation aimed at RFID is now taking more of a beating than Buster the dummy absorbs on a typical episode of the show." I had to re-read that first sentence a few times.
- biohacker42 18y ago
  So first Adam claims they were pressured into dropping the segment. Then bad publicity ensues and what do you know: Adam now claims he had a brain fart and all the big corporations say there just giddy over the Mythbusters segment. They were bending over backwards to help! Shucks, what a silly misunderstanding!
Protophore 18y ago
Interesting that there's already a company making wallets to block RFID signals: http://www.rfidblockr.com/ http://www.rfidblockr.com/
- yan 18y ago
  There's also http://difrwear.com http://difrwear.com
  - lg 18y ago
    I have one of these, and after a mystifying experience at airport security, I discovered that the RFID shielding is made of metal. No clue whether it actually works, though.
    - khafra 18y ago
      "REAL ID Act and RFID: Privacy and Legal Implications," a talk at The Last HOPE, tested one such wallet, and determined that while it's closed, it works--but the one they tried sprung open about an inch when placed on a table, and the rfid card inside was still readable that way. http://www.thelasthope.org/talks.html http://www.thelasthope.org/talks.html http://www.thelasthope.org/media/audio/16kbps/REAL_ID_Act_and_RFID_Privacy_and_Legal_Implications.mp3 http://www.thelasthope.org/media/audio/16kbps/REAL_ID_Act_an...
    - thamer 18y ago
      I have a passport case and a wallet from DIFRWear. I don't carry my passport everyday, but my public transportation card works with RFID and it's definitely not working when kept inside the wallet. Surely it could be read when I'm actually using it to get in the station, but once in my pocket there's no way to copy or read it. I haven't had the occasion to try the shielding of the passport case either.
  - khafra 18y ago
    Also http://lessemf.com http://lessemf.com, which also sells silver mesh boxers.
jmatt 18y ago
Interesting and unfortunate. I wish the Mythbusters didn't face this sort of pressure. Maybe they can still do the segment and then put it on their website. That is less predominate than their TV show. With information like the defcon slides already readily available I'm surprised to see such pressure. I guess a segment on a cable TV show is more public than MIT student newspaper. http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=271920 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=271920
thenextweb 18y ago
Incredible! Hope they show it online soon. Would become an instant hit...
jrockway 18y ago
Wouldn't it be cheaper to design reliable technology than to pay lawyers to strong-arm people into not talking about how unreliable it is?
- mechanical_fish 18y ago
  I seriously doubt it. Lawyers can issue scary legal threats in their sleep. It's like yawning to them. Threatening Mythbusters is probably a matter of 15 billable minutes of legal time. Whereas building a secure RFID is hundreds or thousands of engineering hours. Here's something that just occurred to me: One reason why actual security is more expensive than lawyers is that your security team is up against black-hat hackers who are willing to spend hundreds of hours working -- anonymously, in secret, and without pay -- to defeat you. Whereas your legal team is generally not opposed by a black-hat legal team that is willing to spend hundreds of pro bono legal hours to try to defeat you in court. Particularly because you can't challenge a legal threat while simultaneously remaining anonymous and working in secret.
  - jrockway 18y ago
    Whereas building a secure RFID is hundreds or thousands of engineering hours. Building the insecure RFID is also hundreds or thousands of engineering hours. There is a lot of grunt work that was done regardless; designing the radios, designing the manufacturing process for the ID chips to be as cheap as possible, etc. Getting the crypto right isn't much on top of that.
josefresco 18y ago
Why can't they just do the episode and keeping-in-line with past 'sensitive' topics like bomb making, skip over the part where they actually tell you how to do it? Or would it even be possible given how easy it is?
tocomment 18y ago
Does anyone know an easy/inexpensive way to "clone" an RFID card? (My work only lets me have one card, but I want to keep one in my car and one in a my wallet since I need it both in the garage and in the building.) I figure it shouldn't be too hard, it's just sending out a radio frequency, right?

35 points by astrec 18y ago

noor420 18y ago

Does this mean hackers will be RFID-Driving for my credit card info?

incomethax 18y ago
well, when its this easy it gets concerning... http://tv.boingboing.net/2008/03/19/how-to-hack-an-rfide.html http://tv.boingboing.net/2008/03/19/how-to-hack-an-rfide.htm...
noodle 18y ago
yeah, you can already do that. i can't find a link to the experiment, but i saw something on rfid wardriving and hacking that involved setting up a node near gas station rfid payment nodules (similar to how ATM hackers set up fake fronts on the card insertions), intercepting the information that can get cracked or copied for use.

deleted 18y ago

[deleted]

evgen 18y ago

This particular "myth" has already been busted. Looks like El Reg is a running a bit behind the new of the day: http://www.networkworld.com/community/node/32254 http://www.networkworld.com/community/node/32254

tlrobinson 18y ago
Sounds like he got in a little trouble with Discovery for blaming them.
hbien 18y ago
"Adam Savage's widely circulated YouTube video account of a pack of credit card industry giants pummeling Discovery Channel into deep-sixing a Mythbusters investigation aimed at RFID is now taking more of a beating than Buster the dummy absorbs on a typical episode of the show." I had to re-read that first sentence a few times.
biohacker42 18y ago
So first Adam claims they were pressured into dropping the segment. Then bad publicity ensues and what do you know: Adam now claims he had a brain fart and all the big corporations say there just giddy over the Mythbusters segment. They were bending over backwards to help! Shucks, what a silly misunderstanding!

Protophore 18y ago

Interesting that there's already a company making wallets to block RFID signals: http://www.rfidblockr.com/ http://www.rfidblockr.com/

yan 18y ago
There's also http://difrwear.com http://difrwear.com
- lg 18y ago
  I have one of these, and after a mystifying experience at airport security, I discovered that the RFID shielding is made of metal. No clue whether it actually works, though.
  - khafra 18y ago
    "REAL ID Act and RFID: Privacy and Legal Implications," a talk at The Last HOPE, tested one such wallet, and determined that while it's closed, it works--but the one they tried sprung open about an inch when placed on a table, and the rfid card inside was still readable that way. http://www.thelasthope.org/talks.html http://www.thelasthope.org/talks.html http://www.thelasthope.org/media/audio/16kbps/REAL_ID_Act_and_RFID_Privacy_and_Legal_Implications.mp3 http://www.thelasthope.org/media/audio/16kbps/REAL_ID_Act_an...
  - thamer 18y ago
    I have a passport case and a wallet from DIFRWear. I don't carry my passport everyday, but my public transportation card works with RFID and it's definitely not working when kept inside the wallet. Surely it could be read when I'm actually using it to get in the station, but once in my pocket there's no way to copy or read it. I haven't had the occasion to try the shielding of the passport case either.
- khafra 18y ago
  Also http://lessemf.com http://lessemf.com, which also sells silver mesh boxers.

jmatt 18y ago

Interesting and unfortunate. I wish the Mythbusters didn't face this sort of pressure. Maybe they can still do the segment and then put it on their website. That is less predominate than their TV show. With information like the defcon slides already readily available I'm surprised to see such pressure. I guess a segment on a cable TV show is more public than MIT student newspaper. http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=271920 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=271920

thenextweb 18y ago

Incredible! Hope they show it online soon. Would become an instant hit...

jrockway 18y ago

Wouldn't it be cheaper to design reliable technology than to pay lawyers to strong-arm people into not talking about how unreliable it is?

mechanical_fish 18y ago
I seriously doubt it. Lawyers can issue scary legal threats in their sleep. It's like yawning to them. Threatening Mythbusters is probably a matter of 15 billable minutes of legal time. Whereas building a secure RFID is hundreds or thousands of engineering hours. Here's something that just occurred to me: One reason why actual security is more expensive than lawyers is that your security team is up against black-hat hackers who are willing to spend hundreds of hours working -- anonymously, in secret, and without pay -- to defeat you. Whereas your legal team is generally not opposed by a black-hat legal team that is willing to spend hundreds of pro bono legal hours to try to defeat you in court. Particularly because you can't challenge a legal threat while simultaneously remaining anonymous and working in secret.
- jrockway 18y ago
  Whereas building a secure RFID is hundreds or thousands of engineering hours. Building the insecure RFID is also hundreds or thousands of engineering hours. There is a lot of grunt work that was done regardless; designing the radios, designing the manufacturing process for the ID chips to be as cheap as possible, etc. Getting the crypto right isn't much on top of that.

josefresco 18y ago

Why can't they just do the episode and keeping-in-line with past 'sensitive' topics like bomb making, skip over the part where they actually tell you how to do it? Or would it even be possible given how easy it is?

tocomment 18y ago

Does anyone know an easy/inexpensive way to "clone" an RFID card? (My work only lets me have one card, but I want to keep one in my car and one in a my wallet since I need it both in the garage and in the building.) I figure it shouldn't be too hard, it's just sending out a radio frequency, right?