3 ms·

I don't think that these HN posts can be dismissed as cyclic griping and finger pointing / laughing. 1. Any company that produces bad UI should be called on it

I don't think that these HN posts can be dismissed as cyclic griping and finger pointing / laughing. 1. Any company that produces bad UI should be called on it, particularly when that UI is going to impact such a large number of people. 2. I have a sense that it's not just anti-MS griping because, after all this time, after seeing the ascendency of design centric products, we find MS is still incapable, on an institutional and management level, of improving. Indeed they are getting worse at this. 3. If MS had produced something truly impressive, I think you'd see some honest, if not muted, clapping from even the anti-MS crowd. I'm no fan of MS (or Apple in many ways), but I'm a fan of trying hard and doing good work. This seems like neither. P.S. You are right to point out Apple's failures. iTunes is a beachhead product that they are terrified of abandoning or altering lest it kill the golden goose ecosystem (they have no qualms about killing the golden goose of other people's ecosystems, cf the pro apps series, in the name of usability, though I think their success record there is spotty at best). It is an experience nightmare as well. I also hate the direction of the faux-natural-ui garbage in iCal and elsewhere in the system. Apple isn't hitting all homeruns on the UI front, even if they have raised the bar. edit: spelling, more words.

iaskwhy 15y ago
You don't fancy Metro UI? It's easy to say Microsoft is this or that but in the end we are talking about a big company with many things going on. Windows Phone 7 is good, as is Xbox, and these came from the same company that does some other mistakes like every other company.
- Adaptive 15y ago
  Metro UI is certainly one of the most interesting and progressive UI developments to come out of MS. I like a lot of the thinking in it. The fact that this explorer UI can exist in the same company is a tell. It demonstrates that MS's silo structure, while theoretically creating creative competition, simply results in missed opportunities. This is the real lesson from Apple. It's not just that there has been a top down design martinet running the show (that's obviously key); it's that there is a real ethos of design and perfectionism (at least in terms of UI/UX) that not only functions as a guide internally, but which is so strong and clear and implicit in the apple ecosystem that the developers of apple apps have internalized it successfully. It's not just the apple HID guidelines; it's much, much deeper than that. I absolutely loathe the centralization and control Apple imposes on content. I am in fact a rabid Linux user. But this lesson from Apple can't be ignored. Metro is one silo in Microsoft learning the UI/Design lesson. What they need is a design ethos, and that is much more difficult. It requires leadership, time and most of all consistency. The latter factor is almost the antonym of Microsoft.
  - iaskwhy 15y ago
    I completely understand what you are saying but I have my doubts having a design centralization is the way to go. We see now that OSX is getting closer and closer to iOS thus getting OSX less usable and discoverable (try to use Finder only with the left mouse button like most people do; the scroll bar gone by default; etc). I have the feeling having Windows 8 (for computers) being created by the same people who did Metro UI (for mobile devices) is not the way to go.
    - Adaptive 15y ago
      I'm in agreement with these points. I'd extend your point by saying that centralized design "control" has a major risk. Apple devs definitely follow the design principles espoused by apple, but the problem is the design is starting to go bad. Apple has confused pretty and faux-real with good design. The desktop experience needs to be shaken up and I'm glad it's happening, but I don't like what's being produced by either iOS/Lion or Win 8.

iaskwhy 15y ago

You don't fancy Metro UI? It's easy to say Microsoft is this or that but in the end we are talking about a big company with many things going on. Windows Phone 7 is good, as is Xbox, and these came from the same company that does some other mistakes like every other company.

Adaptive 15y ago
Metro UI is certainly one of the most interesting and progressive UI developments to come out of MS. I like a lot of the thinking in it. The fact that this explorer UI can exist in the same company is a tell. It demonstrates that MS's silo structure, while theoretically creating creative competition, simply results in missed opportunities. This is the real lesson from Apple. It's not just that there has been a top down design martinet running the show (that's obviously key); it's that there is a real ethos of design and perfectionism (at least in terms of UI/UX) that not only functions as a guide internally, but which is so strong and clear and implicit in the apple ecosystem that the developers of apple apps have internalized it successfully. It's not just the apple HID guidelines; it's much, much deeper than that. I absolutely loathe the centralization and control Apple imposes on content. I am in fact a rabid Linux user. But this lesson from Apple can't be ignored. Metro is one silo in Microsoft learning the UI/Design lesson. What they need is a design ethos, and that is much more difficult. It requires leadership, time and most of all consistency. The latter factor is almost the antonym of Microsoft.
- iaskwhy 15y ago
  I completely understand what you are saying but I have my doubts having a design centralization is the way to go. We see now that OSX is getting closer and closer to iOS thus getting OSX less usable and discoverable (try to use Finder only with the left mouse button like most people do; the scroll bar gone by default; etc). I have the feeling having Windows 8 (for computers) being created by the same people who did Metro UI (for mobile devices) is not the way to go.
  - Adaptive 15y ago
    I'm in agreement with these points. I'd extend your point by saying that centralized design "control" has a major risk. Apple devs definitely follow the design principles espoused by apple, but the problem is the design is starting to go bad. Apple has confused pretty and faux-real with good design. The desktop experience needs to be shaken up and I'm glad it's happening, but I don't like what's being produced by either iOS/Lion or Win 8.