4 ms·

Looks like "Microsoft doesn't understand user experience" articles are becoming popular again on Hacker News. I would like to remind people that even a design

by aymeric 15y ago

Looks like "Microsoft doesn't understand user experience" articles are becoming popular again on Hacker News. I would like to remind people that even a design focused company like Apple do softwares with crappy user experience (think iTunes). User experience is hard to get right and what you would consider a good user experience might not be a good one for your neighbour: some prefer clicking on buttons, some prefer clutter-free UIs with keyboard shortcuts.

ootachi 15y ago
Are you crazy? iTunes has one of the best user experiences of any app on the market today. Period.
- burrokeet 15y ago
  Yes I agree, with two exceptions - first when clicking somewhere opens a new itunes sub-window (who wants that?) and second they changed the reveal-in-finder command from apple-R to shift-apple-R Other than that it rocks (literally)
- dagw 15y ago
  As a music listing app, perhaps (although it's not my cup of tea). As an app and music store browsing and iPad management and syncing app it's pretty damn horrific.
Adaptive 15y ago
I don't think that these HN posts can be dismissed as cyclic griping and finger pointing / laughing. 1. Any company that produces bad UI should be called on it, particularly when that UI is going to impact such a large number of people. 2. I have a sense that it's not just anti-MS griping because, after all this time, after seeing the ascendency of design centric products, we find MS is still incapable, on an institutional and management level, of improving. Indeed they are getting worse at this. 3. If MS had produced something truly impressive, I think you'd see some honest, if not muted, clapping from even the anti-MS crowd. I'm no fan of MS (or Apple in many ways), but I'm a fan of trying hard and doing good work. This seems like neither. P.S. You are right to point out Apple's failures. iTunes is a beachhead product that they are terrified of abandoning or altering lest it kill the golden goose ecosystem (they have no qualms about killing the golden goose of other people's ecosystems, cf the pro apps series, in the name of usability, though I think their success record there is spotty at best). It is an experience nightmare as well. I also hate the direction of the faux-natural-ui garbage in iCal and elsewhere in the system. Apple isn't hitting all homeruns on the UI front, even if they have raised the bar. edit: spelling, more words.
- iaskwhy 15y ago
  You don't fancy Metro UI? It's easy to say Microsoft is this or that but in the end we are talking about a big company with many things going on. Windows Phone 7 is good, as is Xbox, and these came from the same company that does some other mistakes like every other company.
  - Adaptive 15y ago
    Metro UI is certainly one of the most interesting and progressive UI developments to come out of MS. I like a lot of the thinking in it. The fact that this explorer UI can exist in the same company is a tell. It demonstrates that MS's silo structure, while theoretically creating creative competition, simply results in missed opportunities. This is the real lesson from Apple. It's not just that there has been a top down design martinet running the show (that's obviously key); it's that there is a real ethos of design and perfectionism (at least in terms of UI/UX) that not only functions as a guide internally, but which is so strong and clear and implicit in the apple ecosystem that the developers of apple apps have internalized it successfully. It's not just the apple HID guidelines; it's much, much deeper than that. I absolutely loathe the centralization and control Apple imposes on content. I am in fact a rabid Linux user. But this lesson from Apple can't be ignored. Metro is one silo in Microsoft learning the UI/Design lesson. What they need is a design ethos, and that is much more difficult. It requires leadership, time and most of all consistency. The latter factor is almost the antonym of Microsoft.
    - iaskwhy 15y ago
      I completely understand what you are saying but I have my doubts having a design centralization is the way to go. We see now that OSX is getting closer and closer to iOS thus getting OSX less usable and discoverable (try to use Finder only with the left mouse button like most people do; the scroll bar gone by default; etc). I have the feeling having Windows 8 (for computers) being created by the same people who did Metro UI (for mobile devices) is not the way to go.
      - 15y ago
r00fus 15y ago
My classic Mac snafu was iSync way back in 2005, after iSync on my new iMac running 10.4.0 after asking if I wanted to sync my SE 610T, it wiped out my phone's entire address book (it assumed the iMac had the canonical list ... of 0 entries). I did hear they resolved it in a later release of 10.4, but I was pretty annoyed. Apple does tend to fix bad uses cases like these much quicker, as they have limited configurations of OS deployments to address... this is by design also.

by aymeric 15y ago

ootachi 15y ago

Are you crazy? iTunes has one of the best user experiences of any app on the market today. Period.

burrokeet 15y ago
Yes I agree, with two exceptions - first when clicking somewhere opens a new itunes sub-window (who wants that?) and second they changed the reveal-in-finder command from apple-R to shift-apple-R Other than that it rocks (literally)
dagw 15y ago
As a music listing app, perhaps (although it's not my cup of tea). As an app and music store browsing and iPad management and syncing app it's pretty damn horrific.

Adaptive 15y ago

I don't think that these HN posts can be dismissed as cyclic griping and finger pointing / laughing. 1. Any company that produces bad UI should be called on it, particularly when that UI is going to impact such a large number of people. 2. I have a sense that it's not just anti-MS griping because, after all this time, after seeing the ascendency of design centric products, we find MS is still incapable, on an institutional and management level, of improving. Indeed they are getting worse at this. 3. If MS had produced something truly impressive, I think you'd see some honest, if not muted, clapping from even the anti-MS crowd. I'm no fan of MS (or Apple in many ways), but I'm a fan of trying hard and doing good work. This seems like neither. P.S. You are right to point out Apple's failures. iTunes is a beachhead product that they are terrified of abandoning or altering lest it kill the golden goose ecosystem (they have no qualms about killing the golden goose of other people's ecosystems, cf the pro apps series, in the name of usability, though I think their success record there is spotty at best). It is an experience nightmare as well. I also hate the direction of the faux-natural-ui garbage in iCal and elsewhere in the system. Apple isn't hitting all homeruns on the UI front, even if they have raised the bar. edit: spelling, more words.

iaskwhy 15y ago
You don't fancy Metro UI? It's easy to say Microsoft is this or that but in the end we are talking about a big company with many things going on. Windows Phone 7 is good, as is Xbox, and these came from the same company that does some other mistakes like every other company.
- Adaptive 15y ago
  Metro UI is certainly one of the most interesting and progressive UI developments to come out of MS. I like a lot of the thinking in it. The fact that this explorer UI can exist in the same company is a tell. It demonstrates that MS's silo structure, while theoretically creating creative competition, simply results in missed opportunities. This is the real lesson from Apple. It's not just that there has been a top down design martinet running the show (that's obviously key); it's that there is a real ethos of design and perfectionism (at least in terms of UI/UX) that not only functions as a guide internally, but which is so strong and clear and implicit in the apple ecosystem that the developers of apple apps have internalized it successfully. It's not just the apple HID guidelines; it's much, much deeper than that. I absolutely loathe the centralization and control Apple imposes on content. I am in fact a rabid Linux user. But this lesson from Apple can't be ignored. Metro is one silo in Microsoft learning the UI/Design lesson. What they need is a design ethos, and that is much more difficult. It requires leadership, time and most of all consistency. The latter factor is almost the antonym of Microsoft.
  - iaskwhy 15y ago
    I completely understand what you are saying but I have my doubts having a design centralization is the way to go. We see now that OSX is getting closer and closer to iOS thus getting OSX less usable and discoverable (try to use Finder only with the left mouse button like most people do; the scroll bar gone by default; etc). I have the feeling having Windows 8 (for computers) being created by the same people who did Metro UI (for mobile devices) is not the way to go.
    - 15y ago

r00fus 15y ago

My classic Mac snafu was iSync way back in 2005, after iSync on my new iMac running 10.4.0 after asking if I wanted to sync my SE 610T, it wiped out my phone's entire address book (it assumed the iMac had the canonical list ... of 0 entries). I did hear they resolved it in a later release of 10.4, but I was pretty annoyed. Apple does tend to fix bad uses cases like these much quicker, as they have limited configurations of OS deployments to address... this is by design also.