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You’re defending a currency that fluctuates wildly in value by saying it’s better than a traditional currency seeing a few percent inflation. Tell me more.

by JCM9 5y ago

kjksf 5y ago
I would still prefer something that appreciates in value over long term, like bitcoin (https://www.statista.com/statistics/326707/bitcoin-price-index/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/326707/bitcoin-price-ind...) over something that looses value over long term, like $dollar (https://www.officialdata.org/us/inflation/1800?amount=1 https://www.officialdata.org/us/inflation/1800?amount=1) This might change in the future but as long as we're sticking to the past performance, bitcoin doesn't need defending. It's vastly superior to $dollar.
rglover 5y ago
I just did. Your focus it too shortsighted. Right now Bitcoin is in a speculative phase because it's new and people don't understand its real point: freedom from artificial government control over prosperity. People trust fiat over Bitcoin because they don't understand economics. In simple terms: given a currency X that can be traded for some fixed amount of resources, the more of that currency that exists, the more competition there is for the fixed amount of resources. As governments continue to back themselves into a corner by printing more and more money, we will hit an inflection point (multiple historical examples of this) where inflation goes near-parabolic. When that happens, there are a few options: starving people, asset forfeiture (either direct by force or via high taxes), or, the issuance of a "new" state controlled currency (see discussions on Central Bank Digital Currencies for a modern version or the Rentenmark for a historical version). Those CBDCs (what I think is most likely) will be the same exact grift replayed, but this time, with even more strict controls over your money because the technology enables it (money that expires, money that can be taken from you instantly and permanently, etc). Why I defend Bitcoin ultimately is that it gives freedom back to people and restores the potential for a real economy (exchanging value for value). Not a debt-based economy where the government steals money from the productive via taxes and entraps the poor with inflation (all the while accomplishing absolutely nothing but more suffering via bad policy). To not defend Bitcoin means to blind oneself to the reality that they are, in effect, property of their government. They just don't realize it because they're free range.
- JCM9 5y ago
  I hear your argument, but if global confidence in government and central economic control collapses then bitcoin isn’t going to save you. That’s when you hunker down and prepare for global chaos.
  - rglover 5y ago
    > I hear your argument, but if global confidence in government and central economic control collapses then bitcoin isn’t going to save you. We don't know that. Nothing like Bitcoin has ever existed. And I'd imagine most people would prefer the short-term uncertainty and pain of reorienting their usage of money over starving or fighting to the death. If people take off the goggles, they will realize that it's all an illusion. The government is just other people like you and me with access to violence and the ability to indirectly control/manipulate other systems we depend on (e.g., banks, housing, etc). Their ceasing to exist doesn't preclude civilization collapsing long-term; they've just convinced people that it would.
    - erichocean 5y ago
      > Nothing like Bitcoin has ever existed. Physical gold?
      - rglover 5y ago
        That can be confiscated. Bitcoin cannot. And as soon as SpaceX et al. start doing space mining, gold (and most precious metals) will no longer be rare.
        erichocean 5y ago
        The government can mandate that all entities that wish to legally transact in Bitcoin, must do so with a publicly-registered wallet (e.g. held on an exchange). They can also ban transacting with any wallet that is not publicly registered. Any private wallet becomes, by fiat, illegal for the citizens of that country to transact with. Thus, any such "blacklisted" wallet is as good as confiscated, since no one can (or will) trade with your tainted coins. Your wallet's coins are, effectively, permanently banned. (It's as if they confiscated your gold and locked it in a vault, never to be used again.) Perhaps some other blockchain protocol has solved this issue, but Bitcoin hasn't, since Bitcoin wasn't designed with privacy in mind.

You’re defending a currency that fluctuates wildly in value by saying it’s better than a traditional currency seeing a few percent inflation. Tell me more.

by JCM9 5y ago

You’re defending a currency that fluctuates wildly in value by saying it’s better than a traditional currency seeing a few percent inflation. Tell me more.

kjksf 5y ago

I would still prefer something that appreciates in value over long term, like bitcoin (https://www.statista.com/statistics/326707/bitcoin-price-index/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/326707/bitcoin-price-ind...) over something that looses value over long term, like $dollar (https://www.officialdata.org/us/inflation/1800?amount=1 https://www.officialdata.org/us/inflation/1800?amount=1) This might change in the future but as long as we're sticking to the past performance, bitcoin doesn't need defending. It's vastly superior to $dollar.

rglover 5y ago

I just did. Your focus it too shortsighted. Right now Bitcoin is in a speculative phase because it's new and people don't understand its real point: freedom from artificial government control over prosperity. People trust fiat over Bitcoin because they don't understand economics. In simple terms: given a currency X that can be traded for some fixed amount of resources, the more of that currency that exists, the more competition there is for the fixed amount of resources. As governments continue to back themselves into a corner by printing more and more money, we will hit an inflection point (multiple historical examples of this) where inflation goes near-parabolic. When that happens, there are a few options: starving people, asset forfeiture (either direct by force or via high taxes), or, the issuance of a "new" state controlled currency (see discussions on Central Bank Digital Currencies for a modern version or the Rentenmark for a historical version). Those CBDCs (what I think is most likely) will be the same exact grift replayed, but this time, with even more strict controls over your money because the technology enables it (money that expires, money that can be taken from you instantly and permanently, etc). Why I defend Bitcoin ultimately is that it gives freedom back to people and restores the potential for a real economy (exchanging value for value). Not a debt-based economy where the government steals money from the productive via taxes and entraps the poor with inflation (all the while accomplishing absolutely nothing but more suffering via bad policy). To not defend Bitcoin means to blind oneself to the reality that they are, in effect, property of their government. They just don't realize it because they're free range.

JCM9 5y ago
I hear your argument, but if global confidence in government and central economic control collapses then bitcoin isn’t going to save you. That’s when you hunker down and prepare for global chaos.
- rglover 5y ago
  > I hear your argument, but if global confidence in government and central economic control collapses then bitcoin isn’t going to save you. We don't know that. Nothing like Bitcoin has ever existed. And I'd imagine most people would prefer the short-term uncertainty and pain of reorienting their usage of money over starving or fighting to the death. If people take off the goggles, they will realize that it's all an illusion. The government is just other people like you and me with access to violence and the ability to indirectly control/manipulate other systems we depend on (e.g., banks, housing, etc). Their ceasing to exist doesn't preclude civilization collapsing long-term; they've just convinced people that it would.
  - erichocean 5y ago
    > Nothing like Bitcoin has ever existed. Physical gold?
    - rglover 5y ago
      That can be confiscated. Bitcoin cannot. And as soon as SpaceX et al. start doing space mining, gold (and most precious metals) will no longer be rare.
      - erichocean 5y ago
        The government can mandate that all entities that wish to legally transact in Bitcoin, must do so with a publicly-registered wallet (e.g. held on an exchange). They can also ban transacting with any wallet that is not publicly registered. Any private wallet becomes, by fiat, illegal for the citizens of that country to transact with. Thus, any such "blacklisted" wallet is as good as confiscated, since no one can (or will) trade with your tainted coins. Your wallet's coins are, effectively, permanently banned. (It's as if they confiscated your gold and locked it in a vault, never to be used again.) Perhaps some other blockchain protocol has solved this issue, but Bitcoin hasn't, since Bitcoin wasn't designed with privacy in mind.