10 ms·

> the technical limitations on transaction throughput https://lightning.network/ https://lightning.network/ > random thing that people have arbitrarily decide

> the technical limitations on transaction throughput https://lightning.network/ https://lightning.network/ > random thing that people have arbitrarily decided has value It has value because it's a fixed-supply currency that can't be manipulated like state currencies, allows for near-instant transactions of arbitrary amounts, is open 24/7, gives banking to billions of people who otherwise wouldn't have it, makes it possible to transact with anyone all over the world without an intermediary, and prevents exactly what's happening right now with inflation.

paulgb 5y ago
> prevents exactly what's happening right now with inflation Seems like a funny time to be making the inflation hedge argument. Say what you will about USD inflation, but it's never lost ~30% of its buying power in a month, as Bitcoin has in the past month.
- NovemberWhiskey 5y ago
  Of course, if goods and services were priced in bitcoin then that would be part of a good argument that bitcoin is actually a currency.
  - reginold 5y ago
    Whenever Bitcoin is an option I pay in Bitcoin. Standard Notes for example, allows you to pay in Bitcoin or any other cryptocurrency. Check out the Lightning network, it's much more about currency/goods/services as a Bitcoin service.
    - NovemberWhiskey 5y ago
      Buying something with BTC doesn't mean it's priced in BTC. With the possible exception of dark web drugs/gun/murder-for-hire/WHY every case I've seen of BTC being used for goods and services involves dynamic currency conversion. i.e. the price is in, say, USD and the amount it costs in BTC is derived from the USD spot price of BTC. It's like I swipe my credit card in Japan; the price is in JPY but I pay in USD. I would be interested to see any counterexamples.
      - ac29 5y ago
        Right, and Standard Notes doesnt appear to be a counterexample: https://standardnotes.com/plans https://standardnotes.com/plans (all prices are in dollars). They appear to use coinpayments.net, which does the exact sort of dynamic pricing you're talking about - it costs significantly more today to purchase in Bitcoin than it did 24 hours ago.
        reginold 5y ago
        Agreed! OpenSea is a good example of native crypto pricing -- replied above about that.
      - reginold 5y ago
        Oh good point, I see what you mean. Where are things priced natively in Bitcoin or Ethereum, no matter the USD value? Standard Notes is not an example in that case, it just converts BTC to USD. Everything on OpenSea is priced in cryptocurrencies natively: https://opensea.io/ https://opensea.io/ By USD OpenSea's contract transacted an estimated 8% of Amazon's revenues.
- reginold 5y ago
  To flip it around, yes, the USD has lost 30% of its buying power in a month before. To Bitcoin. When you define the USD as stability, then yes, USD is stable. It seems like circular logic.
  - NovemberWhiskey 5y ago
    It only makes sense to talk about "buying power" when you can actually exchange a thing for goods and services which are priced in that thing. That doesn't apply to bitcoin, but it does to the dollar. This isn't arbitrary.
- kjksf 5y ago
  The part you're not talking about: USD inflation is permanent and accumulative over long term (year+). Simply stated, purchasing power of $dollar has been going down, consistently, over the last 200 years. Bitcoin is a more volatile asset but over long term (year+) it's going up. By a lot. Hugely. This might change in the future but the historical performance of bitcoin crushes historical performance of a $dollar.
JCM9 5y ago
You’re defending a currency that fluctuates wildly in value by saying it’s better than a traditional currency seeing a few percent inflation. Tell me more.
- kjksf 5y ago
  I would still prefer something that appreciates in value over long term, like bitcoin (https://www.statista.com/statistics/326707/bitcoin-price-index/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/326707/bitcoin-price-ind...) over something that looses value over long term, like $dollar (https://www.officialdata.org/us/inflation/1800?amount=1 https://www.officialdata.org/us/inflation/1800?amount=1) This might change in the future but as long as we're sticking to the past performance, bitcoin doesn't need defending. It's vastly superior to $dollar.
- rglover 5y ago
  I just did. Your focus it too shortsighted. Right now Bitcoin is in a speculative phase because it's new and people don't understand its real point: freedom from artificial government control over prosperity. People trust fiat over Bitcoin because they don't understand economics. In simple terms: given a currency X that can be traded for some fixed amount of resources, the more of that currency that exists, the more competition there is for the fixed amount of resources. As governments continue to back themselves into a corner by printing more and more money, we will hit an inflection point (multiple historical examples of this) where inflation goes near-parabolic. When that happens, there are a few options: starving people, asset forfeiture (either direct by force or via high taxes), or, the issuance of a "new" state controlled currency (see discussions on Central Bank Digital Currencies for a modern version or the Rentenmark for a historical version). Those CBDCs (what I think is most likely) will be the same exact grift replayed, but this time, with even more strict controls over your money because the technology enables it (money that expires, money that can be taken from you instantly and permanently, etc). Why I defend Bitcoin ultimately is that it gives freedom back to people and restores the potential for a real economy (exchanging value for value). Not a debt-based economy where the government steals money from the productive via taxes and entraps the poor with inflation (all the while accomplishing absolutely nothing but more suffering via bad policy). To not defend Bitcoin means to blind oneself to the reality that they are, in effect, property of their government. They just don't realize it because they're free range.
bgroat 5y ago
But hasn't it been pretty trivially manipulated by people tweeting? Sure, I could manipulate USD by seizing control of the Federal Reserve, but BTC can be manipulated by tweets from laser-eyes

paulgb 5y ago

> prevents exactly what's happening right now with inflation Seems like a funny time to be making the inflation hedge argument. Say what you will about USD inflation, but it's never lost ~30% of its buying power in a month, as Bitcoin has in the past month.

NovemberWhiskey 5y ago
Of course, if goods and services were priced in bitcoin then that would be part of a good argument that bitcoin is actually a currency.
- reginold 5y ago
  Whenever Bitcoin is an option I pay in Bitcoin. Standard Notes for example, allows you to pay in Bitcoin or any other cryptocurrency. Check out the Lightning network, it's much more about currency/goods/services as a Bitcoin service.
  - NovemberWhiskey 5y ago
    Buying something with BTC doesn't mean it's priced in BTC. With the possible exception of dark web drugs/gun/murder-for-hire/WHY every case I've seen of BTC being used for goods and services involves dynamic currency conversion. i.e. the price is in, say, USD and the amount it costs in BTC is derived from the USD spot price of BTC. It's like I swipe my credit card in Japan; the price is in JPY but I pay in USD. I would be interested to see any counterexamples.
    - ac29 5y ago
      Right, and Standard Notes doesnt appear to be a counterexample: https://standardnotes.com/plans https://standardnotes.com/plans (all prices are in dollars). They appear to use coinpayments.net, which does the exact sort of dynamic pricing you're talking about - it costs significantly more today to purchase in Bitcoin than it did 24 hours ago.
      - reginold 5y ago
        Agreed! OpenSea is a good example of native crypto pricing -- replied above about that.
    - reginold 5y ago
      Oh good point, I see what you mean. Where are things priced natively in Bitcoin or Ethereum, no matter the USD value? Standard Notes is not an example in that case, it just converts BTC to USD. Everything on OpenSea is priced in cryptocurrencies natively: https://opensea.io/ https://opensea.io/ By USD OpenSea's contract transacted an estimated 8% of Amazon's revenues.
reginold 5y ago
To flip it around, yes, the USD has lost 30% of its buying power in a month before. To Bitcoin. When you define the USD as stability, then yes, USD is stable. It seems like circular logic.
- NovemberWhiskey 5y ago
  It only makes sense to talk about "buying power" when you can actually exchange a thing for goods and services which are priced in that thing. That doesn't apply to bitcoin, but it does to the dollar. This isn't arbitrary.
kjksf 5y ago
The part you're not talking about: USD inflation is permanent and accumulative over long term (year+). Simply stated, purchasing power of $dollar has been going down, consistently, over the last 200 years. Bitcoin is a more volatile asset but over long term (year+) it's going up. By a lot. Hugely. This might change in the future but the historical performance of bitcoin crushes historical performance of a $dollar.

JCM9 5y ago

You’re defending a currency that fluctuates wildly in value by saying it’s better than a traditional currency seeing a few percent inflation. Tell me more.

kjksf 5y ago
I would still prefer something that appreciates in value over long term, like bitcoin (https://www.statista.com/statistics/326707/bitcoin-price-index/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/326707/bitcoin-price-ind...) over something that looses value over long term, like $dollar (https://www.officialdata.org/us/inflation/1800?amount=1 https://www.officialdata.org/us/inflation/1800?amount=1) This might change in the future but as long as we're sticking to the past performance, bitcoin doesn't need defending. It's vastly superior to $dollar.
rglover 5y ago
I just did. Your focus it too shortsighted. Right now Bitcoin is in a speculative phase because it's new and people don't understand its real point: freedom from artificial government control over prosperity. People trust fiat over Bitcoin because they don't understand economics. In simple terms: given a currency X that can be traded for some fixed amount of resources, the more of that currency that exists, the more competition there is for the fixed amount of resources. As governments continue to back themselves into a corner by printing more and more money, we will hit an inflection point (multiple historical examples of this) where inflation goes near-parabolic. When that happens, there are a few options: starving people, asset forfeiture (either direct by force or via high taxes), or, the issuance of a "new" state controlled currency (see discussions on Central Bank Digital Currencies for a modern version or the Rentenmark for a historical version). Those CBDCs (what I think is most likely) will be the same exact grift replayed, but this time, with even more strict controls over your money because the technology enables it (money that expires, money that can be taken from you instantly and permanently, etc). Why I defend Bitcoin ultimately is that it gives freedom back to people and restores the potential for a real economy (exchanging value for value). Not a debt-based economy where the government steals money from the productive via taxes and entraps the poor with inflation (all the while accomplishing absolutely nothing but more suffering via bad policy). To not defend Bitcoin means to blind oneself to the reality that they are, in effect, property of their government. They just don't realize it because they're free range.

bgroat 5y ago

But hasn't it been pretty trivially manipulated by people tweeting? Sure, I could manipulate USD by seizing control of the Federal Reserve, but BTC can be manipulated by tweets from laser-eyes