4 ms·

> they could make more money if they learned to negotiate better I don’t know what line of work your friends were in, but prior to the current economic dustup,

by lovich 5y ago

> they could make more money if they learned to negotiate better I don’t know what line of work your friends were in, but prior to the current economic dustup, negotiation wasn’t a thing for most jobs. And I don’t mean that it was hard or rare. I mean you literally had no option to negotiate. Companies job offers were take it or leave it. That sort of widespread treatment of workers as cogs and not an individual is part of the anger of the antiwork movement

newaccount74 5y ago
Also, people should be treated well wether they are good negotiators or not.
- GhettoComputers 5y ago
  How can you treat someone well and give someone what they want when they can’t tell you what they? If I don’t want to work Friday but can’t articulate it and you asked me if I can and I said yes, are you at fault? Negotiations are not arguments.
  - chromanoid 5y ago
    In a world of generosity people would anticipate what their fellows want and help where they can to let them find what they want.
    - GhettoComputers 5y ago
      Are you generous enough to give me what I want right now? I don’t know if you anticipate mind readers, but communication skills are essential, most people don’t know what they themselves want and can’t communicate with themselves even.
      - chromanoid 5y ago
        Well, we don't live in a world of generosity so it's not as simple as that. Anti-work people as well as punks at least to some extent usually strife for a world of generosity and what comes with it. And beyond that many religions do as well with various degrees of dedication. I think beside that it's a matter of human dignity to at least try to be generous to those who have it worse. Not because I might be in their shoes at some point in the future, but because I like the idea of a world full of generosity, even if I will not benefit from it directly. I currently live a happy stable privileged life and would still love to see my income to support a basic income for example. Even though it will probably never benefit me nor my family directly.
        GhettoComputers 5y ago
        Isn't it as simple as embedding yourself in a world that understands you? >Anti-work people as well as punks at least to some extent usually strife for a world of generosity and what comes with it. I see a lot of expectations for others to be generous to them not the other way around, its the have nots that are complaining, the haves are able to fund this dream of making this true through charities or social experiments like places here. https://www.npr.org/2021/03/04/973653719/california-program-giving-500-no-strings-attached-stipends-pays-off-study-finds https://www.npr.org/2021/03/04/973653719/california-program-... >I like the idea of a world full of generosity I do too, I like the idea of world peace, no crimes, and kindness everywhere. I've lived in places that had that kindness in poorer areas than where I live in "shitty countries". If you localize and select, its not impossible or even rare. >I currently live a happy stable privileged life and would still love to see my income to support a basic income for example. In Denmark, your dreams can come true, they tax at high rates (over 50% sometimes), have great social support, and then internet tells me it has some of the lowest corruption rates or is the lowest.
        newaccount74 5y ago
        > I see a lot of expectations for others to be generous to them not the other way around I don't see that at all. If you follow the /r/antiwork subreddit, then it's really not about people expecting free stuff or generosity for nothing in return. People just don't want to be treated like shit by their managers. People expect not to be fired because they refused to come in on their day off for the 3rd time in a row. People expect to be able to attend family events that they told their boss weeks in advance. People just expect to be treated decent by their employer. Nobody seriously expects stuff for free. Anti-work is about people saying, if you keep walking all over me just to feel good about yourself, then go do the work yourself, I don't need the paycheck enough to deal with your abuse.
squidlogic 5y ago
That’s heavily dependent upon the role, not an “economic dustup.” For a line cook at McDonald’s, yes, replacement is easy so wages are lower and fixed. For an account manager in a highly relational field, it is much harder to replace this role and so that individual could leverage that skill-scarcity into better wages.
motohagiography 5y ago
They were artists and musicians, so not quite laborers, but to be a part of that antiwork movement, one has to believe in a paternalistic company providing jobs as a reward for compliant behavior, where you've already inferiorized yourself, and that underlying belief creates a failed expectation, which creates the resentment we end up moralizing into an oppressed identity. Religious or spiritually oriented people don't have this issue as much, as their primary relationship and identity is to something greater than their circumstances, and this gives them faith in alternatives, which means leverage in that bargaining relationship with the world. They're not just tugging on a leash and calling it freedom, as for them faith itself means there is no leash. There's an underlying belief in the punk and antiwork mentality that unless someone has suffered like they have, we can't understand their truth, but this ignores that nobody would choose to suffer like they did unless they had first given up their identity as having been created by someone invested in their happiness (e.g. being actually loved). It produces some great music and culture, but it's based on a solvable problem. The whole punk ethos is predicated on an appeal for dignity by people who first believe they don't have it because it was taken from them somehow. Someone made them rage, probably with shame or humiliation. The political beliefs that flow from it are a full psychosexual orientation. I'm not saying they're wrong, but I am saying it is a distinct experience that can't always be shared, and that's what makes reconciling it with opposition almost impossible. Didn't expect to go there, but it's all pretty Freudian.
- chromanoid 5y ago
  I don't think anti-work people generally primarily fight against paternalistic companies. They fight work ethos as a whole. See for example https://www.krisis.org/1999/manifesto-against-labour/ https://www.krisis.org/1999/manifesto-against-labour/ > A corpse rules society – the corpse of labour. All powers around the globe formed an alliance to defend its rule: the Pope and the World Bank, Tony Blair and Jörg Haider, trade unions and entrepreneurs, German ecologists and French socialists. They don’t know but one slogan: jobs, jobs, jobs! I would argue the punk movement is not about rage but about anarchy and disobedience towards a conformist society. It's more about being an offensive social drop-out, a splinter under the bourgeois' skin - Not out of rage but out of revulsion.
ryandrake 5y ago
I mean, this is still the case, for the vast, vast, VAST majority of jobs worldwide. Your negotiating options are 1. take it, or 2. leave it. Even in tech, which is supposedly red hot now, unless you have some extremely niche sought-after talent, or are already some CxO captain of your industry, you have no leverage negotiating yourself vs. a trillion dollar company. Of course, everyone on HN has their anecdote about their brother's cousin's girlfriend's former roommate successfully negotiation $1M in stock options at Facebook, but those cases are likely 4-5 standard deviation outliers.
- warble 5y ago
  This is negotiating. Take it or leave it represents a choice. Where I live, which is obviously privileged (California) the workers have a huge advantage currently with this choice.

by lovich 5y ago

newaccount74 5y ago

Also, people should be treated well wether they are good negotiators or not.

GhettoComputers 5y ago
How can you treat someone well and give someone what they want when they can’t tell you what they? If I don’t want to work Friday but can’t articulate it and you asked me if I can and I said yes, are you at fault? Negotiations are not arguments.
- chromanoid 5y ago
  In a world of generosity people would anticipate what their fellows want and help where they can to let them find what they want.
  - GhettoComputers 5y ago
    Are you generous enough to give me what I want right now? I don’t know if you anticipate mind readers, but communication skills are essential, most people don’t know what they themselves want and can’t communicate with themselves even.
    - chromanoid 5y ago
      Well, we don't live in a world of generosity so it's not as simple as that. Anti-work people as well as punks at least to some extent usually strife for a world of generosity and what comes with it. And beyond that many religions do as well with various degrees of dedication. I think beside that it's a matter of human dignity to at least try to be generous to those who have it worse. Not because I might be in their shoes at some point in the future, but because I like the idea of a world full of generosity, even if I will not benefit from it directly. I currently live a happy stable privileged life and would still love to see my income to support a basic income for example. Even though it will probably never benefit me nor my family directly.
      - GhettoComputers 5y ago
        Isn't it as simple as embedding yourself in a world that understands you? >Anti-work people as well as punks at least to some extent usually strife for a world of generosity and what comes with it. I see a lot of expectations for others to be generous to them not the other way around, its the have nots that are complaining, the haves are able to fund this dream of making this true through charities or social experiments like places here. https://www.npr.org/2021/03/04/973653719/california-program-giving-500-no-strings-attached-stipends-pays-off-study-finds https://www.npr.org/2021/03/04/973653719/california-program-... >I like the idea of a world full of generosity I do too, I like the idea of world peace, no crimes, and kindness everywhere. I've lived in places that had that kindness in poorer areas than where I live in "shitty countries". If you localize and select, its not impossible or even rare. >I currently live a happy stable privileged life and would still love to see my income to support a basic income for example. In Denmark, your dreams can come true, they tax at high rates (over 50% sometimes), have great social support, and then internet tells me it has some of the lowest corruption rates or is the lowest.
        newaccount74 5y ago
        > I see a lot of expectations for others to be generous to them not the other way around I don't see that at all. If you follow the /r/antiwork subreddit, then it's really not about people expecting free stuff or generosity for nothing in return. People just don't want to be treated like shit by their managers. People expect not to be fired because they refused to come in on their day off for the 3rd time in a row. People expect to be able to attend family events that they told their boss weeks in advance. People just expect to be treated decent by their employer. Nobody seriously expects stuff for free. Anti-work is about people saying, if you keep walking all over me just to feel good about yourself, then go do the work yourself, I don't need the paycheck enough to deal with your abuse.

squidlogic 5y ago

That’s heavily dependent upon the role, not an “economic dustup.” For a line cook at McDonald’s, yes, replacement is easy so wages are lower and fixed. For an account manager in a highly relational field, it is much harder to replace this role and so that individual could leverage that skill-scarcity into better wages.

motohagiography 5y ago

They were artists and musicians, so not quite laborers, but to be a part of that antiwork movement, one has to believe in a paternalistic company providing jobs as a reward for compliant behavior, where you've already inferiorized yourself, and that underlying belief creates a failed expectation, which creates the resentment we end up moralizing into an oppressed identity. Religious or spiritually oriented people don't have this issue as much, as their primary relationship and identity is to something greater than their circumstances, and this gives them faith in alternatives, which means leverage in that bargaining relationship with the world. They're not just tugging on a leash and calling it freedom, as for them faith itself means there is no leash. There's an underlying belief in the punk and antiwork mentality that unless someone has suffered like they have, we can't understand their truth, but this ignores that nobody would choose to suffer like they did unless they had first given up their identity as having been created by someone invested in their happiness (e.g. being actually loved). It produces some great music and culture, but it's based on a solvable problem. The whole punk ethos is predicated on an appeal for dignity by people who first believe they don't have it because it was taken from them somehow. Someone made them rage, probably with shame or humiliation. The political beliefs that flow from it are a full psychosexual orientation. I'm not saying they're wrong, but I am saying it is a distinct experience that can't always be shared, and that's what makes reconciling it with opposition almost impossible. Didn't expect to go there, but it's all pretty Freudian.

chromanoid 5y ago
I don't think anti-work people generally primarily fight against paternalistic companies. They fight work ethos as a whole. See for example https://www.krisis.org/1999/manifesto-against-labour/ https://www.krisis.org/1999/manifesto-against-labour/ > A corpse rules society – the corpse of labour. All powers around the globe formed an alliance to defend its rule: the Pope and the World Bank, Tony Blair and Jörg Haider, trade unions and entrepreneurs, German ecologists and French socialists. They don’t know but one slogan: jobs, jobs, jobs! I would argue the punk movement is not about rage but about anarchy and disobedience towards a conformist society. It's more about being an offensive social drop-out, a splinter under the bourgeois' skin - Not out of rage but out of revulsion.

ryandrake 5y ago

I mean, this is still the case, for the vast, vast, VAST majority of jobs worldwide. Your negotiating options are 1. take it, or 2. leave it. Even in tech, which is supposedly red hot now, unless you have some extremely niche sought-after talent, or are already some CxO captain of your industry, you have no leverage negotiating yourself vs. a trillion dollar company. Of course, everyone on HN has their anecdote about their brother's cousin's girlfriend's former roommate successfully negotiation $1M in stock options at Facebook, but those cases are likely 4-5 standard deviation outliers.

warble 5y ago
This is negotiating. Take it or leave it represents a choice. Where I live, which is obviously privileged (California) the workers have a huge advantage currently with this choice.