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The same reason why people move. Relying on others to do everything to benefit you is wishful but deluded. If you care, what are you doing to improve their con

The same reason why people move. Relying on others to do everything to benefit you is wishful but deluded. If you care, what are you doing to improve their conditions? Would you like to be that manager or are you currently doing that? It isn’t bad to be that way, but who is willing to put in that work?

sosborn 5y ago
> Relying on others to do everything to benefit you is wishful but deluded. Isn't that exactly what these companies and managers are doing when they exploit workers?
- GhettoComputers 5y ago
  Is it working?
  - sosborn 5y ago
    For whom?
bpfrh 5y ago
We rely on the restaurant not serving bad food because of regulation. We rely on good safety standards in a workplace, so that people working in chemical factories do not die from breathing in toxic fumes. So to be clear, we rely on other people and other people doing things for us all the time, so the discussion is not about relying on other people, but in this case what are work conditions which are acceptable. I think that fire at will for example is a bad idea, but I don't live in the USA, so my view comes from a different perspective.
- GhettoComputers 5y ago
  Having eaten in countries with no safety regulations for food, I doubt those regulations are beneficial for anyone and only hurt poor entrepreneurs. I’ve also eaten plenty of illegal elote with no regulations in the US, I’m still alive. OSHA regulation is like the EU, some of it is ridiculous and nobody follows it. An example of both is Casu martzu, politics destroying culture.
  - lovich 5y ago
    In the event that you’re unaware. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Jungle https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Jungle The food regulations in the US didn’t spring unexpectedly and wholly formed from the minds of politicians like some legal Athena. They were in response to actual, documented issues with food preparation. They are explicitly beneficial for the populace unless you think getting food poisoning commonly is a good thing
    - GhettoComputers 5y ago
      I read the jungle and I know about it. I initially agreed, the conditions were terrible. But even without regulations people make rational decisions like not eat at restaurants that make them sick and not buying Chinese baby milk products even before regulation, post regulation hasn’t stopped them from buying America baby formula either. If you think we need the government to stop people eating at cockroach infested buildings, you’re ignoring common sense. Do we need the FDA to decide marijuana has no medical value, or that people were too stupid and only ate rank food that caused them illness with no ability to eat food that wasn’t sickening before the FDA saved everyone?
      - sosborn 5y ago
        > not eat at restaurants that make them sick Or, you know, not have restaurants that make people sick. > not buying Chinese baby milk products even before regulation What makes you think baby milk in whatever country you live in would be better without regulation? Do you think that maybe lack of regulation/enforcement is why Chinese baby milk contributed to that particular scandal?
        GhettoComputers 5y ago
        > Do you think that maybe lack of regulation/enforcement is why Chinese baby milk contributed to that particular scandal? No, because they still don’t trust it today, with Chinese oversight. Regulations don’t stop restaurants from making people sick, accidents like e Coli poisonings occur with or without regulation, the FDA doesn’t need to step in, the company will have no business if they serve poor quality products. Did Chinese regulations make a difference? > It had been estimated in 2018 that up to 80% to 90% of infant formula purchased in Australia was destined for China. Bayer has poisoned aspirin, their reaction to it without regulation made them trustworthy.
- karaterobot 5y ago
  > We rely on the restaurant not serving bad food because of regulation. I don't think you can rely on that being the only reason a restaurant doesn't serve bad food. I think it's better if they are motivated to serve good food rather than being afraid of being punished for serving bad food. > So to be clear, we rely on other people and other people doing things for us all the time, so the discussion is not about relying on other people, but in this case what are work conditions which are acceptable. I am not clear whether this negates your previous two sentences or not. I agree with this statement in isolation though!
  - bpfrh 5y ago
    Hmmm, maybe I had bad examples, my point was that we rely a lot in our daily life that other people do their job right and that even if they don't there will be checks in place that catch problems. We even rely on organizations and parties to lobby for our interests. So we kind of accept that we need to rely on other people. I probably should have said "We relay that the people in the restaurant know how to cook and keep their ingriedients clean and fresh and we rely on checks that catches mistakes"?
    - pksebben 5y ago
      > we even rely on organizations and parties to lobby for our interests. This may be some of the cultural divide that's flummoxing this conversation. In the US, many if not most of us have lost faith that this process is even remotely reliable. We have studies that back this up - policy decisions are made in favor of the wealthy very reliably, but for the rest of us, it's luck of the draw when we get what we want.
trs8080 5y ago
marching in the streets, calling local politicians, organizing in my community. not everyone is selfish and some folks work hard to push society forward.
- GhettoComputers 5y ago
  So walking in the street expecting your actions to make other people do it?
malermeister 5y ago
Congratulations, you've just discovered the point of unions. Employers won't give you what you want if you just ask for it. But it's not deluded to think you can get it anyways. Through industrial action and worker solidarity you can force their hand, get what you want and change society for the better.

sosborn 5y ago

> Relying on others to do everything to benefit you is wishful but deluded. Isn't that exactly what these companies and managers are doing when they exploit workers?

GhettoComputers 5y ago
Is it working?
- sosborn 5y ago
  For whom?

bpfrh 5y ago

We rely on the restaurant not serving bad food because of regulation. We rely on good safety standards in a workplace, so that people working in chemical factories do not die from breathing in toxic fumes. So to be clear, we rely on other people and other people doing things for us all the time, so the discussion is not about relying on other people, but in this case what are work conditions which are acceptable. I think that fire at will for example is a bad idea, but I don't live in the USA, so my view comes from a different perspective.

GhettoComputers 5y ago
Having eaten in countries with no safety regulations for food, I doubt those regulations are beneficial for anyone and only hurt poor entrepreneurs. I’ve also eaten plenty of illegal elote with no regulations in the US, I’m still alive. OSHA regulation is like the EU, some of it is ridiculous and nobody follows it. An example of both is Casu martzu, politics destroying culture.
- lovich 5y ago
  In the event that you’re unaware. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Jungle https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Jungle The food regulations in the US didn’t spring unexpectedly and wholly formed from the minds of politicians like some legal Athena. They were in response to actual, documented issues with food preparation. They are explicitly beneficial for the populace unless you think getting food poisoning commonly is a good thing
  - GhettoComputers 5y ago
    I read the jungle and I know about it. I initially agreed, the conditions were terrible. But even without regulations people make rational decisions like not eat at restaurants that make them sick and not buying Chinese baby milk products even before regulation, post regulation hasn’t stopped them from buying America baby formula either. If you think we need the government to stop people eating at cockroach infested buildings, you’re ignoring common sense. Do we need the FDA to decide marijuana has no medical value, or that people were too stupid and only ate rank food that caused them illness with no ability to eat food that wasn’t sickening before the FDA saved everyone?
    - sosborn 5y ago
      > not eat at restaurants that make them sick Or, you know, not have restaurants that make people sick. > not buying Chinese baby milk products even before regulation What makes you think baby milk in whatever country you live in would be better without regulation? Do you think that maybe lack of regulation/enforcement is why Chinese baby milk contributed to that particular scandal?
      - GhettoComputers 5y ago
        > Do you think that maybe lack of regulation/enforcement is why Chinese baby milk contributed to that particular scandal? No, because they still don’t trust it today, with Chinese oversight. Regulations don’t stop restaurants from making people sick, accidents like e Coli poisonings occur with or without regulation, the FDA doesn’t need to step in, the company will have no business if they serve poor quality products. Did Chinese regulations make a difference? > It had been estimated in 2018 that up to 80% to 90% of infant formula purchased in Australia was destined for China. Bayer has poisoned aspirin, their reaction to it without regulation made them trustworthy.
karaterobot 5y ago
> We rely on the restaurant not serving bad food because of regulation. I don't think you can rely on that being the only reason a restaurant doesn't serve bad food. I think it's better if they are motivated to serve good food rather than being afraid of being punished for serving bad food. > So to be clear, we rely on other people and other people doing things for us all the time, so the discussion is not about relying on other people, but in this case what are work conditions which are acceptable. I am not clear whether this negates your previous two sentences or not. I agree with this statement in isolation though!
- bpfrh 5y ago
  Hmmm, maybe I had bad examples, my point was that we rely a lot in our daily life that other people do their job right and that even if they don't there will be checks in place that catch problems. We even rely on organizations and parties to lobby for our interests. So we kind of accept that we need to rely on other people. I probably should have said "We relay that the people in the restaurant know how to cook and keep their ingriedients clean and fresh and we rely on checks that catches mistakes"?
  - pksebben 5y ago
    > we even rely on organizations and parties to lobby for our interests. This may be some of the cultural divide that's flummoxing this conversation. In the US, many if not most of us have lost faith that this process is even remotely reliable. We have studies that back this up - policy decisions are made in favor of the wealthy very reliably, but for the rest of us, it's luck of the draw when we get what we want.

trs8080 5y ago

marching in the streets, calling local politicians, organizing in my community. not everyone is selfish and some folks work hard to push society forward.

GhettoComputers 5y ago
So walking in the street expecting your actions to make other people do it?

malermeister 5y ago

Congratulations, you've just discovered the point of unions. Employers won't give you what you want if you just ask for it. But it's not deluded to think you can get it anyways. Through industrial action and worker solidarity you can force their hand, get what you want and change society for the better.