6 ms·

This gave me hope when I saw it yesterday morning. For once, some news that sounded like something the heros of a cyberpunk novel would have been doing, instead

This gave me hope when I saw it yesterday morning. For once, some news that sounded like something the heros of a cyberpunk novel would have been doing, instead of another corporation being even more horrible than a supposedly-parodic fictional corporation with a technology to abuse for profit.

motohagiography 5y ago
It's funny to read this, as I have deeply offended people who had punk worldviews by suggesting they could make more money if they learned to negotiate better, but that's what this antiwork view ultimately resolves to. What clicked is that the idea of being oppressed and dominated by other humans is the sacred axiom of a faith that defines an identity, and a subculture that is becoming a new world religion. Questioning it is like asking someone who believes in God why they can't just choose to be a better person, and maybe not only is it unncessary to believe in what appears to be a kind of divine North Korea to be good, but perhaps that aspect is even getting in their own way. That axiomatic gap is what makes views so irreconcilable. I had some anarchist friends in the 90s who would go to socialist rallies and chant, "Lon-ger chains! Big-ger cag-es!" This went over as well as you might expect, but these antiwork people seem similar. If they persuade people to learn to negotiate for themselves, good on them, but if they convince people to sacrifice their agency and autonomy in the name of appeasing an idol that represents human domination, to me they're just another cargo cult. Still very funny though, well done.
- lovich 5y ago
  > they could make more money if they learned to negotiate better I don’t know what line of work your friends were in, but prior to the current economic dustup, negotiation wasn’t a thing for most jobs. And I don’t mean that it was hard or rare. I mean you literally had no option to negotiate. Companies job offers were take it or leave it. That sort of widespread treatment of workers as cogs and not an individual is part of the anger of the antiwork movement
  - newaccount74 5y ago
    Also, people should be treated well wether they are good negotiators or not.
    - GhettoComputers 5y ago
      How can you treat someone well and give someone what they want when they can’t tell you what they? If I don’t want to work Friday but can’t articulate it and you asked me if I can and I said yes, are you at fault? Negotiations are not arguments.
      - chromanoid 5y ago
        In a world of generosity people would anticipate what their fellows want and help where they can to let them find what they want.
        GhettoComputers 5y ago
        Are you generous enough to give me what I want right now? I don’t know if you anticipate mind readers, but communication skills are essential, most people don’t know what they themselves want and can’t communicate with themselves even.
        chromanoid 5y ago
        Well, we don't live in a world of generosity so it's not as simple as that. Anti-work people as well as punks at least to some extent usually strife for a world of generosity and what comes with it. And beyond that many religions do as well with various degrees of dedication. I think beside that it's a matter of human dignity to at least try to be generous to those who have it worse. Not because I might be in their shoes at some point in the future, but because I like the idea of a world full of generosity, even if I will not benefit from it directly. I currently live a happy stable privileged life and would still love to see my income to support a basic income for example. Even though it will probably never benefit me nor my family directly.
- thinkingemote 5y ago
  The anti-work folks are different than past activists. They may be anti something but they are not explicitly for an alternative. This is revealing. They are actually for work, just a better kind. It's basically a corporation and capitalist friendly activism and as such is harmless.
  - gruez 5y ago
    >They are actually for work, just a better kind. Then they seriously need a better slogan than "anti-work".
  - motohagiography 5y ago
    I like the antiwork people's spirit, as I used to read The Baffler, Adbusters, rtmark, and that whole thing, but you've nailed it that their corporate and government friendly activism is at the crux of it. To extend a metaphor, I think the sales pitch was: "I am offering you liberation, redemption, freedom, and transformation, and all you need to do to achieve it is to be brave and heroic and tug on your leash! What's that you say? You don't have one? Well I have some right here! Just put one on and tug at it, and with enough suffering and blood, you shall overcome! Step right up! This work is guaranteed to set you free, or your money back!" Nobody wants to accept they've been swindled by a deceptive carnival barker working for the leash maker, but in a metaphysical comic book sort of way, I have come to suspect that's precisely what happened.
- vsareto 5y ago
  This recent Anti work movement tends to apply to positions where negotiation isn’t on the table. Those skills aren’t going to help there. Even though wages in the US commonly popped up to 15/hr, it’s still set in stone at or around that rate, maybe some flux depending on experience. There just isn’t anything to negotiate around because these positions will often be a straight contribution of time and labor. You probably can’t offer twice the strength and speed of an average worker (definitely not 10x), so what are you negotiating with? The best thing those skills teach for these positions is to highlight that reality.
  - Teever 5y ago
    > so what are you negotiating with? A group. You negotiate with a group. coordinated actions by groups of people or the threat of coordinated actions can be a form of negotiation. That's what the antiwork movement is about to me.
    - akudha 5y ago
      The recent John Deere strikes shows this - unity is the biggest asset workers have. If they’re united, they can take on any monster corporation. That is why corporations try super hard to pit workers against each other. Example - providing certain benefits to senior workers but not new workers
  - 6510 5y ago
    > You probably can’t offer twice the strength and speed of an average worker (definitely not 10x) You couldn't be more wrong. First some numbers just for laughs: Greatest weight lifted was 6270 lbs or 2844 kg while the safe limit for average men is 55 lbs or 25 kg. Greatest speed was 43.99 km/h (27.33 mph) while average men do 10 km/h. Then there is endurance too of course! Forget about strength and speed, 8 hours is a huuuuuge amount of time for any physical effort. Walking one could theoretically do 25 miles or 40 km in 8 hours but nurses walk only 4-5 and that is considered a lot. I'm not aware of any 8 hour races but Aleksandr Sorokin did 308 km in 24 hours which is 3 x 8 hours. You probably wonder why I compare it to top sports. That is because in my humble opinion it is. If you don't treat physical labor like top sports, if you don't make an effort to adapt all parts of your lifestyle to it, then it you will destroy your body which will bring down productivity dramatically. The average worker is pretty used up. In many such jobs not going insane also takes a huge effort. Its not as black and white as it seems. Most of us are partially nuts and make a constant effort to preserve sanity. Long before one jumps down the foxcon stairwell the insanity starts eating you. If we didn't need them we wouldn't have weekends. You would just hire someone willing to work 7 days? Take it or leave it? 15 hour shifts anyone? Who is the average worker anyway? Are we grouping 20 year olds with 60 year olds here? Your average 60 year old manual laborer (besides the insanity) has a laundry list of permanent injuries that prevent him from doing cardio. The have (besides experience) a high pain tolerance to work with. Then there is quality. Focus isn't exactly equally divided among men. Motivation. Besides from ability one can often chose to do less work or chose to do more. The difference between wanting to dot all the i's and waiting for the big bell to ring is huge. People are also extremely different in how they think about tools and methods. For some they just are, for others they are a half baked work in progress. Everything can potentially be improved. What better time to think about it than during usage? The more mindless the grind the greater the opportunity. You don't have to be a genius, you get 40 hours per week to think about it. Communication and social skills! I'm pretty good at this if everyone has his eyes on the ball. If everyone else is just waiting for the bell to ring I'm toxic, useless and I hate life. I want to marvel at my accomplishments regardless what the job is. Ill do one funny story that can only be told in full: While wiring houses I got to see many companies build walls and ceilings. One day a team of 4 showed up that came in running with the largest size plasterboard that one can buy. They carried it inside slapped the first one onto the ceiling in less than 1 minute then ran off to get the second one. The secret of the formula was that the boss was 6.9 and the 3 employees were all over 7 feet tall. The same day I worked on a different project where 6 old short carpenters with a thousand years of experience between them spend the better part of a week filling up a floor with scaffolding to do exactly the same job. (It was a pain moving my materials and equipment around.) They [had to] use small more manageable plasterboard which requires a lot more wood framing, a lot of sawing and a lot more screws. It took them 4 more days to put in the plasterboard, after that it was the usual patch work of seams that has to be plastered to be presentable. I didn't see them put in the framing but it was simple by comparison. In 20 min the fast team covered a giant living room. It was surreal to look at. 4 pushed the plate against the ceiling, the 5th guy measured and cut it while they yell at him to work faster. Afterwards they spend 10 min laughing. I ask the entrepreneur among them how he found those giants. In the pub he said, I look over all the heads and point at the tall guy then yell, you should come work for me! What is the work? Well, we drive a lot! I didn't see them do the wood frame but I wouldn't be surprised if it took them 1 hour. Lets say 2 hours for the whole job: 6 men 8 days vs 4 men 2 hours = 48 days vs 1 day. Almost 50 times more productive.

motohagiography 5y ago

It's funny to read this, as I have deeply offended people who had punk worldviews by suggesting they could make more money if they learned to negotiate better, but that's what this antiwork view ultimately resolves to. What clicked is that the idea of being oppressed and dominated by other humans is the sacred axiom of a faith that defines an identity, and a subculture that is becoming a new world religion. Questioning it is like asking someone who believes in God why they can't just choose to be a better person, and maybe not only is it unncessary to believe in what appears to be a kind of divine North Korea to be good, but perhaps that aspect is even getting in their own way. That axiomatic gap is what makes views so irreconcilable. I had some anarchist friends in the 90s who would go to socialist rallies and chant, "Lon-ger chains! Big-ger cag-es!" This went over as well as you might expect, but these antiwork people seem similar. If they persuade people to learn to negotiate for themselves, good on them, but if they convince people to sacrifice their agency and autonomy in the name of appeasing an idol that represents human domination, to me they're just another cargo cult. Still very funny though, well done.

lovich 5y ago
> they could make more money if they learned to negotiate better I don’t know what line of work your friends were in, but prior to the current economic dustup, negotiation wasn’t a thing for most jobs. And I don’t mean that it was hard or rare. I mean you literally had no option to negotiate. Companies job offers were take it or leave it. That sort of widespread treatment of workers as cogs and not an individual is part of the anger of the antiwork movement
- newaccount74 5y ago
  Also, people should be treated well wether they are good negotiators or not.
  - GhettoComputers 5y ago
    How can you treat someone well and give someone what they want when they can’t tell you what they? If I don’t want to work Friday but can’t articulate it and you asked me if I can and I said yes, are you at fault? Negotiations are not arguments.
    - chromanoid 5y ago
      In a world of generosity people would anticipate what their fellows want and help where they can to let them find what they want.
      - GhettoComputers 5y ago
        Are you generous enough to give me what I want right now? I don’t know if you anticipate mind readers, but communication skills are essential, most people don’t know what they themselves want and can’t communicate with themselves even.
        chromanoid 5y ago
        Well, we don't live in a world of generosity so it's not as simple as that. Anti-work people as well as punks at least to some extent usually strife for a world of generosity and what comes with it. And beyond that many religions do as well with various degrees of dedication. I think beside that it's a matter of human dignity to at least try to be generous to those who have it worse. Not because I might be in their shoes at some point in the future, but because I like the idea of a world full of generosity, even if I will not benefit from it directly. I currently live a happy stable privileged life and would still love to see my income to support a basic income for example. Even though it will probably never benefit me nor my family directly.
thinkingemote 5y ago
The anti-work folks are different than past activists. They may be anti something but they are not explicitly for an alternative. This is revealing. They are actually for work, just a better kind. It's basically a corporation and capitalist friendly activism and as such is harmless.
- gruez 5y ago
  >They are actually for work, just a better kind. Then they seriously need a better slogan than "anti-work".
- motohagiography 5y ago
  I like the antiwork people's spirit, as I used to read The Baffler, Adbusters, rtmark, and that whole thing, but you've nailed it that their corporate and government friendly activism is at the crux of it. To extend a metaphor, I think the sales pitch was: "I am offering you liberation, redemption, freedom, and transformation, and all you need to do to achieve it is to be brave and heroic and tug on your leash! What's that you say? You don't have one? Well I have some right here! Just put one on and tug at it, and with enough suffering and blood, you shall overcome! Step right up! This work is guaranteed to set you free, or your money back!" Nobody wants to accept they've been swindled by a deceptive carnival barker working for the leash maker, but in a metaphysical comic book sort of way, I have come to suspect that's precisely what happened.
vsareto 5y ago
This recent Anti work movement tends to apply to positions where negotiation isn’t on the table. Those skills aren’t going to help there. Even though wages in the US commonly popped up to 15/hr, it’s still set in stone at or around that rate, maybe some flux depending on experience. There just isn’t anything to negotiate around because these positions will often be a straight contribution of time and labor. You probably can’t offer twice the strength and speed of an average worker (definitely not 10x), so what are you negotiating with? The best thing those skills teach for these positions is to highlight that reality.
- Teever 5y ago
  > so what are you negotiating with? A group. You negotiate with a group. coordinated actions by groups of people or the threat of coordinated actions can be a form of negotiation. That's what the antiwork movement is about to me.
  - akudha 5y ago
    The recent John Deere strikes shows this - unity is the biggest asset workers have. If they’re united, they can take on any monster corporation. That is why corporations try super hard to pit workers against each other. Example - providing certain benefits to senior workers but not new workers
- 6510 5y ago
  > You probably can’t offer twice the strength and speed of an average worker (definitely not 10x) You couldn't be more wrong. First some numbers just for laughs: Greatest weight lifted was 6270 lbs or 2844 kg while the safe limit for average men is 55 lbs or 25 kg. Greatest speed was 43.99 km/h (27.33 mph) while average men do 10 km/h. Then there is endurance too of course! Forget about strength and speed, 8 hours is a huuuuuge amount of time for any physical effort. Walking one could theoretically do 25 miles or 40 km in 8 hours but nurses walk only 4-5 and that is considered a lot. I'm not aware of any 8 hour races but Aleksandr Sorokin did 308 km in 24 hours which is 3 x 8 hours. You probably wonder why I compare it to top sports. That is because in my humble opinion it is. If you don't treat physical labor like top sports, if you don't make an effort to adapt all parts of your lifestyle to it, then it you will destroy your body which will bring down productivity dramatically. The average worker is pretty used up. In many such jobs not going insane also takes a huge effort. Its not as black and white as it seems. Most of us are partially nuts and make a constant effort to preserve sanity. Long before one jumps down the foxcon stairwell the insanity starts eating you. If we didn't need them we wouldn't have weekends. You would just hire someone willing to work 7 days? Take it or leave it? 15 hour shifts anyone? Who is the average worker anyway? Are we grouping 20 year olds with 60 year olds here? Your average 60 year old manual laborer (besides the insanity) has a laundry list of permanent injuries that prevent him from doing cardio. The have (besides experience) a high pain tolerance to work with. Then there is quality. Focus isn't exactly equally divided among men. Motivation. Besides from ability one can often chose to do less work or chose to do more. The difference between wanting to dot all the i's and waiting for the big bell to ring is huge. People are also extremely different in how they think about tools and methods. For some they just are, for others they are a half baked work in progress. Everything can potentially be improved. What better time to think about it than during usage? The more mindless the grind the greater the opportunity. You don't have to be a genius, you get 40 hours per week to think about it. Communication and social skills! I'm pretty good at this if everyone has his eyes on the ball. If everyone else is just waiting for the bell to ring I'm toxic, useless and I hate life. I want to marvel at my accomplishments regardless what the job is. Ill do one funny story that can only be told in full: While wiring houses I got to see many companies build walls and ceilings. One day a team of 4 showed up that came in running with the largest size plasterboard that one can buy. They carried it inside slapped the first one onto the ceiling in less than 1 minute then ran off to get the second one. The secret of the formula was that the boss was 6.9 and the 3 employees were all over 7 feet tall. The same day I worked on a different project where 6 old short carpenters with a thousand years of experience between them spend the better part of a week filling up a floor with scaffolding to do exactly the same job. (It was a pain moving my materials and equipment around.) They [had to] use small more manageable plasterboard which requires a lot more wood framing, a lot of sawing and a lot more screws. It took them 4 more days to put in the plasterboard, after that it was the usual patch work of seams that has to be plastered to be presentable. I didn't see them put in the framing but it was simple by comparison. In 20 min the fast team covered a giant living room. It was surreal to look at. 4 pushed the plate against the ceiling, the 5th guy measured and cut it while they yell at him to work faster. Afterwards they spend 10 min laughing. I ask the entrepreneur among them how he found those giants. In the pub he said, I look over all the heads and point at the tall guy then yell, you should come work for me! What is the work? Well, we drive a lot! I didn't see them do the wood frame but I wouldn't be surprised if it took them 1 hour. Lets say 2 hours for the whole job: 6 men 8 days vs 4 men 2 hours = 48 days vs 1 day. Almost 50 times more productive.