10 ms·

Their Safari browser, running on WebKit, is full of bugs and lagging behind in features such as Push Notifications, Install prompts for Web Apps, and many many

by agust 5y ago

Their Safari browser, running on WebKit, is full of bugs and lagging behind in features such as Push Notifications, Install prompts for Web Apps, and many many others. It makes it impossible to have quality Web Apps running through Safari. This wouldn't be a problem if users could use other browsers that are not that buggy and have the features needed to build native-like app experience. But Apple is banning any other browser from using their own engine, they are all forced to use the buggy and lagging behind WebKit. Firefox, Edge, Chrome, etc on iOS are just skins around WebKit. So there is basically no browser competition on iOS, and this is how Apple prevent web apps from competing with native apps.

phaer 5y ago
Isn't that case somehow similar to how Microsoft used to bundle IE with Windows? iOS isn't a monopoly such as Windows was, but you could use another browser engine on Windows and you can't on iOS. Shouldn't that at least worry antitrust legislators in the EU and/or the US?
- julianlam 5y ago
  No, not at all. In Windows you can install any other browser you want (even if it ships with IE default). On iOS, ALL browsers are forced to used Safari's rendering engine. It would be like installing Firefox and it uses Trident in the background.
  - IggleSniggle 5y ago
    The poster you are responding to is saying the same thing, but also referencing the huge judgement that Microsoft faced for pre-installing Internet Explorer / making it the default browser. They’re saying that while the situation isn’t completely analogous, that what Apple is doing is far more egregious than what Microsoft already faced massive judgement for doing.
    - phaer 5y ago
      Exactly, thanks for clarifying - I've been afk :)
      - julianlam 5y ago
        Ah, I stand corrected :)
- agust 5y ago
  Definitely. The situation on iOS is much worse than it ever was on Windows. Apple is banning all competition in the browser space on more than 1 billion devices worldwide. Antitrust legislators would surely be very interested in this if they were aware of the issue, but most of them probably aren't yet. Some people have been talking to regulators, like Stuart Langridge and Bruce Lawson to the UK regulator, the CMA. Stuart Langridge presentation to the CMA: https://kryogenix.org/code/cma-apple/ https://kryogenix.org/code/cma-apple/
  - rectang 5y ago
    I have mixed feelings about this. Without Safari being required on iOS, Chrome's market share would be overwhelming and then we'd be in a situation back more like the bad old days of IE, where a single browser dominated not just on one OS but across the entire ecosystem.
    - kitsunesoba 5y ago
      And undoubtedly, if Blink-Chrome were present on iOS you can bet that many web devs would target that exclusively, requiring you to trade away battery life and privacy to use the entire web. The web should be to the greatest extent possible browser agnostic.
floatingatoll 5y ago
Things I don’t want on the web: - Websites asking me for permission to send me notifications - Websites asking me to install an app to use them What other features are you decreeing essential? I admit curiosity if my distaste is in perfect opposition.
- infamia 5y ago
  Other people want different features than you. Consider businesses who want to distribute PWAs to their employees instead of going through the laborious and time-consuming process of waiting for Apple reviews, resubmitting if you get a "Monday morning cranky reviewer", etc. For these folks, the app review process is primarily just wasted time and effort.
  - marcellus23 5y ago
    Apple has an enterprise distribution system for exactly that use case, instant distribution with no review required. So that’s not a valid example.
- tjohns 5y ago
  Off the top of my head: The web app working while offline, local storage, and background sync. The idea is to be able to build web apps that have feature parity with native apps. (Especially on mobile, where apps are expected to integrate with the system and data connectivity is intermittent.) If you don’t want that, that’s fine. But native apps are popular for a reason, and those features are a big part of that reason.
  - freediver 5y ago
    > Off the top of my head: The web app working while offline, local storage, and background sync. Do you really mean the web? Or a small subset of the web (that then probably already has a native iOS app)? For example how would Google search work while offline? Even making something as "simple" as HN (only compared to Google search) work while offline would be a considerable technical challenge and a large investment for HN, for a use case that is almost non-existent. Would really appreciate your perspective.

by agust 5y ago

phaer 5y ago

Isn't that case somehow similar to how Microsoft used to bundle IE with Windows? iOS isn't a monopoly such as Windows was, but you could use another browser engine on Windows and you can't on iOS. Shouldn't that at least worry antitrust legislators in the EU and/or the US?

julianlam 5y ago
No, not at all. In Windows you can install any other browser you want (even if it ships with IE default). On iOS, ALL browsers are forced to used Safari's rendering engine. It would be like installing Firefox and it uses Trident in the background.
- IggleSniggle 5y ago
  The poster you are responding to is saying the same thing, but also referencing the huge judgement that Microsoft faced for pre-installing Internet Explorer / making it the default browser. They’re saying that while the situation isn’t completely analogous, that what Apple is doing is far more egregious than what Microsoft already faced massive judgement for doing.
  - phaer 5y ago
    Exactly, thanks for clarifying - I've been afk :)
    - julianlam 5y ago
      Ah, I stand corrected :)
agust 5y ago
Definitely. The situation on iOS is much worse than it ever was on Windows. Apple is banning all competition in the browser space on more than 1 billion devices worldwide. Antitrust legislators would surely be very interested in this if they were aware of the issue, but most of them probably aren't yet. Some people have been talking to regulators, like Stuart Langridge and Bruce Lawson to the UK regulator, the CMA. Stuart Langridge presentation to the CMA: https://kryogenix.org/code/cma-apple/ https://kryogenix.org/code/cma-apple/
- rectang 5y ago
  I have mixed feelings about this. Without Safari being required on iOS, Chrome's market share would be overwhelming and then we'd be in a situation back more like the bad old days of IE, where a single browser dominated not just on one OS but across the entire ecosystem.
  - kitsunesoba 5y ago
    And undoubtedly, if Blink-Chrome were present on iOS you can bet that many web devs would target that exclusively, requiring you to trade away battery life and privacy to use the entire web. The web should be to the greatest extent possible browser agnostic.

floatingatoll 5y ago

Things I don’t want on the web: - Websites asking me for permission to send me notifications - Websites asking me to install an app to use them What other features are you decreeing essential? I admit curiosity if my distaste is in perfect opposition.

infamia 5y ago
Other people want different features than you. Consider businesses who want to distribute PWAs to their employees instead of going through the laborious and time-consuming process of waiting for Apple reviews, resubmitting if you get a "Monday morning cranky reviewer", etc. For these folks, the app review process is primarily just wasted time and effort.
- marcellus23 5y ago
  Apple has an enterprise distribution system for exactly that use case, instant distribution with no review required. So that’s not a valid example.
tjohns 5y ago
Off the top of my head: The web app working while offline, local storage, and background sync. The idea is to be able to build web apps that have feature parity with native apps. (Especially on mobile, where apps are expected to integrate with the system and data connectivity is intermittent.) If you don’t want that, that’s fine. But native apps are popular for a reason, and those features are a big part of that reason.
- freediver 5y ago
  > Off the top of my head: The web app working while offline, local storage, and background sync. Do you really mean the web? Or a small subset of the web (that then probably already has a native iOS app)? For example how would Google search work while offline? Even making something as "simple" as HN (only compared to Google search) work while offline would be a considerable technical challenge and a large investment for HN, for a use case that is almost non-existent. Would really appreciate your perspective.