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The classic argument that will never die. It only has value as long as people put value on it. Green paper also has no value, but there seems to be nothing that

The classic argument that will never die. It only has value as long as people put value on it. Green paper also has no value, but there seems to be nothing that people won't do to get more...

AnIdiotOnTheNet 5y ago
This is a disingenuous take. The green paper is a certificate of debt backed by the US government's full faith and credit. The dollar has value as long as the US government accepts it as payment. Similarly, the number in the bitcoin wallet has no value itself and is backed by greater fools. If you believe greater fools will continue to increase in number over time then bitcoin is a good bet I suppose, but there's a reason the price is so ridiculously unstable.
- md2020 5y ago
  > the US government’s full faith and credit Increasingly doesn’t mean as much to people as it used to when it comes to debasing their own currency. See the recent lie about inflation being transitory, which Powell literally just admitted isn’t true. > the number in the bitcoin wallet has no value itself This is a weird take and I don’t see what your point is. The number in your fiat bank account means just as much as the number in a BTC wallet. The number there is how much you’re entitled to withdraw or spend.
  - AnIdiotOnTheNet 5y ago
    Right, it isn't the number that has value, it's what the number represents. The number of dollars in my bank account represents (in a roundabout way) debt the US government owes me. What does BTC represent? Most generously one could say it represents debts owed by the community, but since each member of the community can choose whether or not to honor that or to what extent it doesn't have any stability.
    - danuker 5y ago
      And the US government does not choose to what extent to honor you? What is inflation targeting then, and why is inflation targeted instead of deflation? The answer: so its debt is inflated away.
lultimouomo 5y ago
It is rare that people hold a lot of pieces of green paper, either physically or virtually in a bank account. People that "have money" actually have stock, or houses, or expensive cars and yachts and planes, or other valuable stuff.
- lowkey 5y ago
  Why is that though? Could it be that by a process of inflation and deflation of the money supply governments have historically manipulated the value of their population's savings? Could it be that the current zero interest rate policy has made it impossible to save for the future without taking considerable risk in the stock market? Could it be that governments have made savings a joke, ensuring that anyone putting their savings in a bank is guaranteed to lose purchasing power over time? Could it be that some governments are so corrupt that they will force savers to accept negative nominal interest rates, so you get back fewer dollars/euros than you put in? Could it be that from inception Bitcoin was designed as a better form of money? One that does not leak it's value over time? One that cannot be manipulated by any government or powerful centralized entity because it is truly decentralized? One that comes with a fixed and predictable central bank inflation policy valid from now to the end of time that allows everyone to know exactly how many bitcoin will exist in a given year now, tomorrow or 20 years from now? Could it be that everything you assume you know about Fiat Currency and Bitcoin is incorrect? Could it be that the fact that you have been consistently wrong in under-appreciating and under-estimating the potential of Bitcoin, should teach you a lesson? That maybe you should examine the flawed assumptions that led you to ignore Bitcoin as yet another Ponzi scheme? What would it take for you to realize you are wrong?
  - ahtihn 5y ago
    Why would it be desirable for people to hold on to their money instead of putting it to productive use?
    - lowkey 5y ago
      It seems as though you are asking why anyone would want to delay immediate consumption in favor of saving for the future. Think of all the major expenses we take on on life healthcare, higher education, housing, retirement. These all generally require saving. Can you not imagine a world where it would be beneficial to individuals to have access to a savings vehicle that offered massively superior returns vs putting money in a savings account in the bank? In fact, unlike saving in a bank, saving in Bitcoin over the long term has proven to consistently outpace inflation. In fact Bitcoin’s return on investment over the past 12 years has 10x’d the equity market. Some may argue that Bitcoin is risky or speculative. I would argue that none of those who dismiss Bitcoin as risky or speculative have actually done the research to go down the rabbit hole to understand the economic, game theory, technical and social innovations of the Bitcoin protocol. Anyone who has spent 10-100 hours studying Bitcoin instead of dismissing it out of hand discovers an amazingly rich world that promises to deliver sound money to the world.
david-gpu 5y ago
> Green paper also has no value Other than the fact that I need it to pay my taxes and put food on the table. Neither the government nor the shops around me accept any other form of payment. The employers around me know that, so they will only offer salaries denominated in the local currency. So, yes, it has a lot of value.
xupybd 5y ago
Green paper has value in trust, liquidity and stability. If people were using crypto as currency I'd be on board. It's a great idea as currency. Trading in it with such a huge valuation, that's where I see problems.

The classic argument that will never die. It only has value as long as people put value on it. Green paper also has no value, but there seems to be nothing that people won't do to get more...

AnIdiotOnTheNet 5y ago

This is a disingenuous take. The green paper is a certificate of debt backed by the US government's full faith and credit. The dollar has value as long as the US government accepts it as payment. Similarly, the number in the bitcoin wallet has no value itself and is backed by greater fools. If you believe greater fools will continue to increase in number over time then bitcoin is a good bet I suppose, but there's a reason the price is so ridiculously unstable.

md2020 5y ago
> the US government’s full faith and credit Increasingly doesn’t mean as much to people as it used to when it comes to debasing their own currency. See the recent lie about inflation being transitory, which Powell literally just admitted isn’t true. > the number in the bitcoin wallet has no value itself This is a weird take and I don’t see what your point is. The number in your fiat bank account means just as much as the number in a BTC wallet. The number there is how much you’re entitled to withdraw or spend.
- AnIdiotOnTheNet 5y ago
  Right, it isn't the number that has value, it's what the number represents. The number of dollars in my bank account represents (in a roundabout way) debt the US government owes me. What does BTC represent? Most generously one could say it represents debts owed by the community, but since each member of the community can choose whether or not to honor that or to what extent it doesn't have any stability.
  - danuker 5y ago
    And the US government does not choose to what extent to honor you? What is inflation targeting then, and why is inflation targeted instead of deflation? The answer: so its debt is inflated away.

lultimouomo 5y ago

It is rare that people hold a lot of pieces of green paper, either physically or virtually in a bank account. People that "have money" actually have stock, or houses, or expensive cars and yachts and planes, or other valuable stuff.

lowkey 5y ago
Why is that though? Could it be that by a process of inflation and deflation of the money supply governments have historically manipulated the value of their population's savings? Could it be that the current zero interest rate policy has made it impossible to save for the future without taking considerable risk in the stock market? Could it be that governments have made savings a joke, ensuring that anyone putting their savings in a bank is guaranteed to lose purchasing power over time? Could it be that some governments are so corrupt that they will force savers to accept negative nominal interest rates, so you get back fewer dollars/euros than you put in? Could it be that from inception Bitcoin was designed as a better form of money? One that does not leak it's value over time? One that cannot be manipulated by any government or powerful centralized entity because it is truly decentralized? One that comes with a fixed and predictable central bank inflation policy valid from now to the end of time that allows everyone to know exactly how many bitcoin will exist in a given year now, tomorrow or 20 years from now? Could it be that everything you assume you know about Fiat Currency and Bitcoin is incorrect? Could it be that the fact that you have been consistently wrong in under-appreciating and under-estimating the potential of Bitcoin, should teach you a lesson? That maybe you should examine the flawed assumptions that led you to ignore Bitcoin as yet another Ponzi scheme? What would it take for you to realize you are wrong?
- ahtihn 5y ago
  Why would it be desirable for people to hold on to their money instead of putting it to productive use?
  - lowkey 5y ago
    It seems as though you are asking why anyone would want to delay immediate consumption in favor of saving for the future. Think of all the major expenses we take on on life healthcare, higher education, housing, retirement. These all generally require saving. Can you not imagine a world where it would be beneficial to individuals to have access to a savings vehicle that offered massively superior returns vs putting money in a savings account in the bank? In fact, unlike saving in a bank, saving in Bitcoin over the long term has proven to consistently outpace inflation. In fact Bitcoin’s return on investment over the past 12 years has 10x’d the equity market. Some may argue that Bitcoin is risky or speculative. I would argue that none of those who dismiss Bitcoin as risky or speculative have actually done the research to go down the rabbit hole to understand the economic, game theory, technical and social innovations of the Bitcoin protocol. Anyone who has spent 10-100 hours studying Bitcoin instead of dismissing it out of hand discovers an amazingly rich world that promises to deliver sound money to the world.

david-gpu 5y ago

> Green paper also has no value Other than the fact that I need it to pay my taxes and put food on the table. Neither the government nor the shops around me accept any other form of payment. The employers around me know that, so they will only offer salaries denominated in the local currency. So, yes, it has a lot of value.

xupybd 5y ago

Green paper has value in trust, liquidity and stability. If people were using crypto as currency I'd be on board. It's a great idea as currency. Trading in it with such a huge valuation, that's where I see problems.