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> Why would they cancel accounts without knowledge of wrongdoing? I’m not saying that they don’t have that knowledge, and I really don’t mean to offend or be r

by moksly 5y ago

> Why would they cancel accounts without knowledge of wrongdoing? I’m not saying that they don’t have that knowledge, and I really don’t mean to offend or be rude, but if the US government asks something of you, you tend to comply wether it’s reasonable or not. I think it’s naive to think of ourselves as living in a just world. Post 9/11 the CIA abducted European citizens with the knowledge of our governments. In more recent years, here in Denmark we had a rather huge scandal when it was revealed that changing governments had allowed American intelligence services direct access to the backbone of our national internet. The list goes on. Its of course unfortunate, but the world we live in is basically a huge turd of authoritarian bullshit where the users and customers have no actual enforceable rights. I mean, even on a much smaller and much more harmless scale, just consider how many times you’ve read about someone losing their Google account here on HN.

imchillyb 5y ago
> I think it’s naive to think of ourselves as living in a just world. The US military entered a foreign nation without their knowledge or authorization, abducted a resident, took the resident out to sea, placed a bag over their heads, put concrete shoes on that resident, and then dumped them overboard with no witnesses other than the "Seal Team" carrying out the order. No trial. No witnesses. Only abduction, seclusion, and murder. That's not justice. Those are Mafia Tactics. ___ Does this remind anyone of anything? A Mr. Al. A Mr. Al Capone perhaps? That's right. One of the world's most infamous gangsters, mobsters, crimelords, did this very thing to individuals that Capone didn't want talking to the press, the government, or anyone else that would listen. This is mob-boss behavior, and the US Government does this now. Oh, how about the unlawful imprisonment of 100s of detainees at Guantanamo Bay in Cuba? Secret courts, whose authority is far-reaching with no citizen oversight whatsoever. Yeah the US Federal Government, since 9-11, is a bunch of mobsters with guns. There is no difference in the way our Federal Government acts now, and how 1920s and 1930s mobsters act. Any human being that doesn't recognize the similarity is deluding themselves into believing so.
- 0cVlTeIATBs 5y ago
  How did you learn about this incident which had no witnesses?
  - dredmorbius 5y ago
    GP's obvious hyperbole and distortions are obvious. That said, this is among the weaker rebuttals which could be offered. (See my own response in thread.)
- dredmorbius 5y ago
  This was in response to acts of war and unprovoked attacks against the United States mainland with both military and civillian targets by an individual who had made a specific declaration of war against the U.S.: https://scholar.dickinson.edu/faculty_publications/277/ https://scholar.dickinson.edu/faculty_publications/277/ Comparing that speific case to failure to follow proper criminal procedure and rule of law is disengenuous to the extreme. There are many criticisms which can be made of the US response to (and other actions after) the 9/11 attacks. The assassination of the leader of the irregular forces aligned against the US is not one such. Numerous other instances would have made for a vastly stronger argument. The fact is that there is no clear dividing line between acts of war and criminal acts --- recognised among other ways in the phrase "war crimes" itself (which might be applied both by, and against, the United States). The situation in Guantanamo is far more valid. The case of drone warfare and strikes another instance. It's worth noting that the US is hardly alone in these tactics, and that irregular and extrajudicial killings are in fact a major element of the considerations in the case of Al Qaeda, at least some of the Guantanamo detainees, and drone strikes. The real world is messy. That said, I'd disagree with your conclusion on lack of difference, moralising, invective, and hyperbole notwithstanding.
  - CRConrad 5y ago
    > This was in response to acts of war and unprovoked attacks against the United States mainland with both military and civillian targets by an individual who had made a specific declaration of war against the U.S. Since when do individuals wage "war" on nation-states? (And no, if the only counter-examples you can come up with are 18th-century pirate chiefs and tiny Carribbean islands you've failed. We're talking 21st-century USA here.) > Comparing that speific case Which "specific" case? The GP mentioned hundreds of Gitmo prisoners, several of which have later been shown to be completely innocent victims of mistaken identity. > to failure to follow proper criminal procedure and rule of law is disengenuous to the extreme. If anything is "disengenuous to the extreme" here it seems to be your defense of the USA's recent practices.
BeFlatXIII 5y ago
Still, the Mossad is one of the agencies who can keep pace with the CIA when they put their mind to it. Nonetheless, if you're not directly an agent, no sense putting yourself in the middle of a spy war.

by moksly 5y ago

imchillyb 5y ago

> I think it’s naive to think of ourselves as living in a just world. The US military entered a foreign nation without their knowledge or authorization, abducted a resident, took the resident out to sea, placed a bag over their heads, put concrete shoes on that resident, and then dumped them overboard with no witnesses other than the "Seal Team" carrying out the order. No trial. No witnesses. Only abduction, seclusion, and murder. That's not justice. Those are Mafia Tactics. ___ Does this remind anyone of anything? A Mr. Al. A Mr. Al Capone perhaps? That's right. One of the world's most infamous gangsters, mobsters, crimelords, did this very thing to individuals that Capone didn't want talking to the press, the government, or anyone else that would listen. This is mob-boss behavior, and the US Government does this now. Oh, how about the unlawful imprisonment of 100s of detainees at Guantanamo Bay in Cuba? Secret courts, whose authority is far-reaching with no citizen oversight whatsoever. Yeah the US Federal Government, since 9-11, is a bunch of mobsters with guns. There is no difference in the way our Federal Government acts now, and how 1920s and 1930s mobsters act. Any human being that doesn't recognize the similarity is deluding themselves into believing so.

0cVlTeIATBs 5y ago
How did you learn about this incident which had no witnesses?
- dredmorbius 5y ago
  GP's obvious hyperbole and distortions are obvious. That said, this is among the weaker rebuttals which could be offered. (See my own response in thread.)
dredmorbius 5y ago
This was in response to acts of war and unprovoked attacks against the United States mainland with both military and civillian targets by an individual who had made a specific declaration of war against the U.S.: https://scholar.dickinson.edu/faculty_publications/277/ https://scholar.dickinson.edu/faculty_publications/277/ Comparing that speific case to failure to follow proper criminal procedure and rule of law is disengenuous to the extreme. There are many criticisms which can be made of the US response to (and other actions after) the 9/11 attacks. The assassination of the leader of the irregular forces aligned against the US is not one such. Numerous other instances would have made for a vastly stronger argument. The fact is that there is no clear dividing line between acts of war and criminal acts --- recognised among other ways in the phrase "war crimes" itself (which might be applied both by, and against, the United States). The situation in Guantanamo is far more valid. The case of drone warfare and strikes another instance. It's worth noting that the US is hardly alone in these tactics, and that irregular and extrajudicial killings are in fact a major element of the considerations in the case of Al Qaeda, at least some of the Guantanamo detainees, and drone strikes. The real world is messy. That said, I'd disagree with your conclusion on lack of difference, moralising, invective, and hyperbole notwithstanding.
- CRConrad 5y ago
  > This was in response to acts of war and unprovoked attacks against the United States mainland with both military and civillian targets by an individual who had made a specific declaration of war against the U.S. Since when do individuals wage "war" on nation-states? (And no, if the only counter-examples you can come up with are 18th-century pirate chiefs and tiny Carribbean islands you've failed. We're talking 21st-century USA here.) > Comparing that speific case Which "specific" case? The GP mentioned hundreds of Gitmo prisoners, several of which have later been shown to be completely innocent victims of mistaken identity. > to failure to follow proper criminal procedure and rule of law is disengenuous to the extreme. If anything is "disengenuous to the extreme" here it seems to be your defense of the USA's recent practices.

BeFlatXIII 5y ago

Still, the Mossad is one of the agencies who can keep pace with the CIA when they put their mind to it. Nonetheless, if you're not directly an agent, no sense putting yourself in the middle of a spy war.