6 ms·

The US spies on its European allies all the time, and I'm sure they spy on Israel too, so that's not super surprising. As for the USS Liberty, some do argue th

by ginja 5y ago

The US spies on its European allies all the time, and I'm sure they spy on Israel too, so that's not super surprising. As for the USS Liberty, some do argue that it was intentional, but both the Israelis and Americans ended up agreeing that it was a mistake. The US is no stranger to such mistakes either, even more egregious ones like when they killed close to 300 civilians aboard a regular passenger flight following an approved route and in contact with ATC (Iran Air 655). In the end both the US and Israel are amoral states that act only according to their economic and strategic interests and I feel that this unites them. I wish it didn't, though.

davidf18 5y ago
Actually, both Israel and the US have a long history of fighting terrorism. Just this past May, terrorists from adjoining Gaza shot 4,300 missiles towards Israeli cities over a 10 day period. Thankfully they were almost all shot down by the Israeli anti-missile defense system, Iron Dome (which the US is now evaluating for use in our Guam base). But still 13 died and 300 injuries occurred during that 10 day period at the hands of terrorists. Israel has been dealing with terrorists hijacking planes for decades. In fact, 2 former Israeli Prime Ministers, Netanyahu and Barak were members of a 16 man special forces team that rescued hostages from Sabena Flight 571. Barak was the leader, Netanyahu was injured. Of course, with 9/11 and other incidents the US has, like Israel, been the target of terrorists. Both the US and Israel have had to deal with terrorists much more than any other developed OECD countries.
stjohnswarts 5y ago
And the European allies spy on the USA, rinse and repeat.
- runarberg 5y ago
  I don’t think so. If they do, it is either a) not nearly on they same scale, or they b) are way more competent about it and less likely to get caught. Given the general incompetence of governments in general (Europe is no exception) I doubt it is (b).
  - bawolff 5y ago
    Or (c) announcing this now furthers some unknown usa political goal but there would be no political win for publisizing whatever europe does.
- jacquesm 5y ago
  If you can't prove that you probably shouldn't make such unqualified statements. There is plenty of proof for the opposite, afaik none whatsoever for the reverse.
  - NikolaeVarius 5y ago
    Everyone spies on everyone else. Reminder that France vacuumed up messages on Enrochat after deploying malware globally, and they have clear text messages from users in any arbitrary country and have not disclosed what they will do with it or what they have. https://www.vice.com/en/article/3aza95/how-police-took-over-encrochat-hacked https://www.vice.com/en/article/3aza95/how-police-took-over-...
    - jacquesm 5y ago
      The specific claim here is that EU countries spy on the US. I do not believe they have that capability, so if you have some proof that would come in handy.
      - hugh-avherald 5y ago
        Just to clarify, you're asking for evidence of secret foreign intelligence operations? Establishing mere capability is pretty trivial: they have diplomats in the United States who can talk to people.
        jacquesm 5y ago
        We have plenty of proof of the US spying on allies in spite of those being secret foreign intelligence operations, there is afaik none whatsoever of say the Germans, the Belgians or the French doing something similar to the US.
        jonnybgood 5y ago
        Spying is intelligence collection. There many ways to collect intelligence. Some completely innocuous like going to a defense trade show and taking pictures. Or using satellites to capture imagery of sensitive locations or developments [1]. Military attaches at embassies who observe their host country’s military developments and operations [2]. These are capabilities that every developed nation has access to. For them not to use it puts them at a disadvantage. You don’t think the French would love to have known about AUKUS submarine deal before it was made? It’s detrimental to not attempt to spy. The French were blindsided and I’m sure they don’t want to be blindsided again. [1] https://www.space.com/arianespace-soyuz-rocket-launches-cso-2-satellite https://www.space.com/arianespace-soyuz-rocket-launches-cso-... [2] https://franceintheus.org/spip.php?article10460 https://franceintheus.org/spip.php?article10460
colordrops 5y ago
They officially decided it was a mistake, as it did neither government any good to officially announce that it was intentional. But the sailors that were on the ship say otherwise.
- tablespoon 5y ago
  > They officially decided it was a mistake, as it did neither government any good to officially announce that it was intentional. But the sailors that were on the ship say otherwise. How would the sailors on the ship being attacked be able to know anything like that (e.g. know if the Israeli pilots thought they were attacking an Egyptian ship or an American one)?
  - sennight 5y ago
    > e.g. know if the Israeli pilots thought they were attacking an Egyptian ship or an American one The sailors would know because they have access to the same information that you do, but a greater incentive to actually do the reading. The Israeli pilots knew it as a US ship, their radio traffic questioning their attack orders - after visually identifying the USS Liberty as a US ship, was recorded and the transcripts widely known about. This happened several times, so unless the Israeli command center had the memory of a goldfish - they intentionally kept sending attack aircraft until they eventually got a pilot to pull the trigger. Why would they do such a thing? Because the US wasn't onboard with the Israeli preemptive strike and they didn't want a signals intelligence boat tipping off the Egyptians. Israel doesn't appear to reciprocate the fond feelings expressed by American politicians - the mere idea of the "Samson Option" is proof enough of that.
    - tablespoon 5y ago
      > This happened several times, so unless the Israeli command center had the memory of a goldfish - they intentionally kept sending attack aircraft until they eventually got a pilot to pull the trigger. Why would they do such a thing? To that point, it's worth noting here friendly fire incidents happen all the time in war, as well as attacks against neutral parties. For instance: the US has bombed its own troops probably more times than anyone can count, and it also bombed the Chinese embassy in Belgrade and shot down an Iranian airliner. Why would they do such things? Honestly, it's plausible they they may actually have had the memory of a goldfish, at least occasionally.
smabie 5y ago
All states act according to their economic and strategic interests right?

by ginja 5y ago

davidf18 5y ago

Actually, both Israel and the US have a long history of fighting terrorism. Just this past May, terrorists from adjoining Gaza shot 4,300 missiles towards Israeli cities over a 10 day period. Thankfully they were almost all shot down by the Israeli anti-missile defense system, Iron Dome (which the US is now evaluating for use in our Guam base). But still 13 died and 300 injuries occurred during that 10 day period at the hands of terrorists. Israel has been dealing with terrorists hijacking planes for decades. In fact, 2 former Israeli Prime Ministers, Netanyahu and Barak were members of a 16 man special forces team that rescued hostages from Sabena Flight 571. Barak was the leader, Netanyahu was injured. Of course, with 9/11 and other incidents the US has, like Israel, been the target of terrorists. Both the US and Israel have had to deal with terrorists much more than any other developed OECD countries.

stjohnswarts 5y ago

And the European allies spy on the USA, rinse and repeat.

runarberg 5y ago
I don’t think so. If they do, it is either a) not nearly on they same scale, or they b) are way more competent about it and less likely to get caught. Given the general incompetence of governments in general (Europe is no exception) I doubt it is (b).
- bawolff 5y ago
  Or (c) announcing this now furthers some unknown usa political goal but there would be no political win for publisizing whatever europe does.
jacquesm 5y ago
If you can't prove that you probably shouldn't make such unqualified statements. There is plenty of proof for the opposite, afaik none whatsoever for the reverse.
- NikolaeVarius 5y ago
  Everyone spies on everyone else. Reminder that France vacuumed up messages on Enrochat after deploying malware globally, and they have clear text messages from users in any arbitrary country and have not disclosed what they will do with it or what they have. https://www.vice.com/en/article/3aza95/how-police-took-over-encrochat-hacked https://www.vice.com/en/article/3aza95/how-police-took-over-...
  - jacquesm 5y ago
    The specific claim here is that EU countries spy on the US. I do not believe they have that capability, so if you have some proof that would come in handy.
    - hugh-avherald 5y ago
      Just to clarify, you're asking for evidence of secret foreign intelligence operations? Establishing mere capability is pretty trivial: they have diplomats in the United States who can talk to people.
      - jacquesm 5y ago
        We have plenty of proof of the US spying on allies in spite of those being secret foreign intelligence operations, there is afaik none whatsoever of say the Germans, the Belgians or the French doing something similar to the US.
        jonnybgood 5y ago
        Spying is intelligence collection. There many ways to collect intelligence. Some completely innocuous like going to a defense trade show and taking pictures. Or using satellites to capture imagery of sensitive locations or developments [1]. Military attaches at embassies who observe their host country’s military developments and operations [2]. These are capabilities that every developed nation has access to. For them not to use it puts them at a disadvantage. You don’t think the French would love to have known about AUKUS submarine deal before it was made? It’s detrimental to not attempt to spy. The French were blindsided and I’m sure they don’t want to be blindsided again. [1] https://www.space.com/arianespace-soyuz-rocket-launches-cso-2-satellite https://www.space.com/arianespace-soyuz-rocket-launches-cso-... [2] https://franceintheus.org/spip.php?article10460 https://franceintheus.org/spip.php?article10460

colordrops 5y ago

They officially decided it was a mistake, as it did neither government any good to officially announce that it was intentional. But the sailors that were on the ship say otherwise.

tablespoon 5y ago
> They officially decided it was a mistake, as it did neither government any good to officially announce that it was intentional. But the sailors that were on the ship say otherwise. How would the sailors on the ship being attacked be able to know anything like that (e.g. know if the Israeli pilots thought they were attacking an Egyptian ship or an American one)?
- sennight 5y ago
  > e.g. know if the Israeli pilots thought they were attacking an Egyptian ship or an American one The sailors would know because they have access to the same information that you do, but a greater incentive to actually do the reading. The Israeli pilots knew it as a US ship, their radio traffic questioning their attack orders - after visually identifying the USS Liberty as a US ship, was recorded and the transcripts widely known about. This happened several times, so unless the Israeli command center had the memory of a goldfish - they intentionally kept sending attack aircraft until they eventually got a pilot to pull the trigger. Why would they do such a thing? Because the US wasn't onboard with the Israeli preemptive strike and they didn't want a signals intelligence boat tipping off the Egyptians. Israel doesn't appear to reciprocate the fond feelings expressed by American politicians - the mere idea of the "Samson Option" is proof enough of that.
  - tablespoon 5y ago
    > This happened several times, so unless the Israeli command center had the memory of a goldfish - they intentionally kept sending attack aircraft until they eventually got a pilot to pull the trigger. Why would they do such a thing? To that point, it's worth noting here friendly fire incidents happen all the time in war, as well as attacks against neutral parties. For instance: the US has bombed its own troops probably more times than anyone can count, and it also bombed the Chinese embassy in Belgrade and shot down an Iranian airliner. Why would they do such things? Honestly, it's plausible they they may actually have had the memory of a goldfish, at least occasionally.

smabie 5y ago

All states act according to their economic and strategic interests right?