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Implying that Israeli spying on the US is some fringe "shadow government" sub-group of the Israeli government is strange given a long, long history of high prof

Implying that Israeli spying on the US is some fringe "shadow government" sub-group of the Israeli government is strange given a long, long history of high profile Israeli spying incidents against the US. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lawrence_Franklin_espionage_scandal https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lawrence_Franklin_espionage_sc... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jonathan_Pollard https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jonathan_Pollard https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ben-Ami_Kadish https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ben-Ami_Kadish https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jack_Parsons_(rocket_engineer) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jack_Parsons_(rocket_engineer) Then there's the time they stole nuclear material from us https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Apollo_Affair https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Apollo_Affair Then there's the time they slaughtered several dozen US navy and NSA personnel with repeated attacks on an unarmed vessel because they didn't like that we were watching them: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Liberty_incident https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Liberty_incident

markus_zhang 5y ago
By saying "shadow government" I mean groups within the US government that has connection to say NOS. Again I don't have concrete proofs so I could be 100% wrong. But reading world history especially cold war history makes me be sceptical to certain things.
- BoardsOfCanada 5y ago
  Hilarious that anyone thought you were talking about an Israeli shadow government.
- enkid 5y ago
  So you are making blind accusations when there is a better explanation, i.e., it was the Israelis.
keewee7 5y ago
The USS Liberty incident happened 52 years ago. >because they didn't like that we were watching them That is the American conspiracy theorist interpretation of the incident that (understandably) also gained traction among a few of the survivors. The Israelis disagree. It was most likely a case of mistaken identity. Just like friendly fire incidents. Friendly fire incidents happen all the time, including between US forces in the recent Iraq and Afghanistan conflict.
- Minor49er 5y ago
  The survivors said that the pilots were waving at them before they carried out the attack
  - lovelyviking 5y ago
    can you provide the source?
    - Minor49er 5y ago
      The quote "I was actually able to wave to the co-pilot, a fellow on the right-hand side of the plane. He waved back, and actually smiled at me" is attributed to Larry Weaver, a crewmember on the Liberty. It was allegedly originally written in a book called "Assault on the Liberty" by James M. Ennes, but I ordered a copy to confirm
    - ipaddr 5y ago
      Have you tried to look and had no luck?
      - bawolff 5y ago
        Its the obligation of the person making the claim to provide a source (or other evidence), not the other way around.
        ipaddr 5y ago
        Do you have a source for that?
- albatross13 5y ago
  Oy vey what an antisemtic statement, assuming Israeli forces are incapable of knowing friend from foe.
  - jack_riminton 5y ago
Eelongate 5y ago
> Then there's the time they stole nuclear material from us https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Apollo_Affair https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Apollo_Affair On a related note, JFK was trying to shut down Israel's nuclear weapons program in the months before his murder. https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/kennedy-letter-to-ben-gurion-regarding-visit-to-dimona https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/kennedy-letter-to-ben-g...
- duped 5y ago
  I'm sure he was conducting a lot of international policy initiatives in the months before his assassination
  - pphysch 5y ago
    Yeah, like (secret) detente with Fidel Castro [1]. [1] - https://nsarchive2.gwu.edu/NSAEBB/NSAEBB103/index.htm https://nsarchive2.gwu.edu/NSAEBB/NSAEBB103/index.htm
Lammy 5y ago
Why would the tail wag the dog? America benefits so much from all the R&D (in e.g. encryption) that can't happen on US soil. They are not our enemy in any way :) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Report_to_the_Secretary_on_the_Acquiescence_of_This_Government_in_the_Murder_of_the_Jews https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Report_to_the_Secretary_on_the... https://www.nybooks.com/articles/2001/09/20/the-truth-about-wallenberg/ https://www.nybooks.com/articles/2001/09/20/the-truth-about-...
- webmaven 5y ago
  > Why would the tail wag the dog? America benefits so much from all the R&D (in e.g. encryption) that can't happen on US soil. As far as I know there are few (if any) restrictions on encryption R&D (and even publication) in the US. What is restricted (due to encryption being classed as a 'munition') is the export of robust encryption products to specific countries. Broadly speaking, circumventing the export controls wouldn't be in the interest of the US Intelligence Community, unless those products have backdoors or vulnerabilities known to the IC.
ginja 5y ago
The US spies on its European allies all the time, and I'm sure they spy on Israel too, so that's not super surprising. As for the USS Liberty, some do argue that it was intentional, but both the Israelis and Americans ended up agreeing that it was a mistake. The US is no stranger to such mistakes either, even more egregious ones like when they killed close to 300 civilians aboard a regular passenger flight following an approved route and in contact with ATC (Iran Air 655). In the end both the US and Israel are amoral states that act only according to their economic and strategic interests and I feel that this unites them. I wish it didn't, though.
- davidf18 5y ago
  Actually, both Israel and the US have a long history of fighting terrorism. Just this past May, terrorists from adjoining Gaza shot 4,300 missiles towards Israeli cities over a 10 day period. Thankfully they were almost all shot down by the Israeli anti-missile defense system, Iron Dome (which the US is now evaluating for use in our Guam base). But still 13 died and 300 injuries occurred during that 10 day period at the hands of terrorists. Israel has been dealing with terrorists hijacking planes for decades. In fact, 2 former Israeli Prime Ministers, Netanyahu and Barak were members of a 16 man special forces team that rescued hostages from Sabena Flight 571. Barak was the leader, Netanyahu was injured. Of course, with 9/11 and other incidents the US has, like Israel, been the target of terrorists. Both the US and Israel have had to deal with terrorists much more than any other developed OECD countries.
- stjohnswarts 5y ago
  And the European allies spy on the USA, rinse and repeat.
  - runarberg 5y ago
    I don’t think so. If they do, it is either a) not nearly on they same scale, or they b) are way more competent about it and less likely to get caught. Given the general incompetence of governments in general (Europe is no exception) I doubt it is (b).
stjohnswarts 5y ago
Anyone who doesn't think the USA and Israel don't spy on each other 24/7 is living in a dream world. Israel is an ally but I don't think that they are our friends.
- seoaeu 5y ago
  Spying between friendly countries happens all the time. It make diplomacy happen much smoother!
rafale 5y ago
Israel even sinked a US navy ship and got away with it. It gives you an idea how powerful their lobby is. NSO should be declared a terrorist organization.
sgregnt 5y ago
Wow should this comment belong to HN? To me it looks like your comment is very biased and misrepresenting. While you say: > Then there's the time they slaughtered several dozen US navy and NSA personnel with repeated attacks on an unarmed vessel because they didn't like that we were watching them" At the same time the wikipedia article that you linked says: "Both the Israeli and U.S. governments conducted inquiries and issued reports that concluded the attack was a mistake due to Israeli confusion about the ship's identity" The sentiment of this part of your comment seems to be so openly and blatantly full of unsubstantiated hatred towards Israel, that my hope is it will be heavy downvoted.
- jacquesm 5y ago
  GP may be simply wrong about some of the facts but you are crossing the HN guidelines in multiple ways at once.
  - sgregnt 5y ago
    Thank you, I'm sorry for the harsh response and you're right about my phrasing, I improve next time. But I can hardly see how the quoted part of the OP comment maybe explains by > simply wrong about some of the facts to me it seems that OP comment was just pushing for agenda using some hyperbole and hate.
    - jacquesm 5y ago
      > to me it seems that OP comment was just pushing for agenda using some hyperbole and hate. The operative word in that sentence is seems, and you can't know that for sure so you shouldn't respond as though you do. HN has some pretty specific instructions about that.
runarberg 5y ago
I come from a country which US intelligence has many times been caught spying on its officials as recently as 2009[1]. A more recent scheme involved recruiting a convicted criminal with proven antisocial personality disorder[2] to spy on Julian Assanges friends. This has been known about since the 1960s at least among Icelandic communists and other left wing individuals. But until really recently (like 10 years ago) the government has been very sympathetic to this spying. For some reason I feel like the US government officials probably share the sentiment of their Icelandic colleagues of old. These immoral activists that obviously step out of line, but the only thing that bothers the US officials is that they got caught. But even then it is not such a big deal. 1: https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2013/nov/19/nsa-surveillance-iceland-free-speech https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2013/nov/19/nsa-surve... 2: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sigurdur_Thordarson https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sigurdur_Thordarson
tremon 5y ago
The parent comment doesn't imply that it was the Israeli government that was doing the spying (and neither does the article), only that Israel delivered the tools. Who's to say this wasn't the CIA keeping tabs on the NSA, or the NSA using foreign tools for plausible deniability?

markus_zhang 5y ago

By saying "shadow government" I mean groups within the US government that has connection to say NOS. Again I don't have concrete proofs so I could be 100% wrong. But reading world history especially cold war history makes me be sceptical to certain things.

BoardsOfCanada 5y ago
Hilarious that anyone thought you were talking about an Israeli shadow government.
enkid 5y ago
So you are making blind accusations when there is a better explanation, i.e., it was the Israelis.

keewee7 5y ago

The USS Liberty incident happened 52 years ago. >because they didn't like that we were watching them That is the American conspiracy theorist interpretation of the incident that (understandably) also gained traction among a few of the survivors. The Israelis disagree. It was most likely a case of mistaken identity. Just like friendly fire incidents. Friendly fire incidents happen all the time, including between US forces in the recent Iraq and Afghanistan conflict.

Minor49er 5y ago
The survivors said that the pilots were waving at them before they carried out the attack
- lovelyviking 5y ago
  can you provide the source?
  - Minor49er 5y ago
    The quote "I was actually able to wave to the co-pilot, a fellow on the right-hand side of the plane. He waved back, and actually smiled at me" is attributed to Larry Weaver, a crewmember on the Liberty. It was allegedly originally written in a book called "Assault on the Liberty" by James M. Ennes, but I ordered a copy to confirm
  - ipaddr 5y ago
    Have you tried to look and had no luck?
    - bawolff 5y ago
      Its the obligation of the person making the claim to provide a source (or other evidence), not the other way around.
      - ipaddr 5y ago
        Do you have a source for that?
albatross13 5y ago
Oy vey what an antisemtic statement, assuming Israeli forces are incapable of knowing friend from foe.
- jack_riminton 5y ago

Eelongate 5y ago

> Then there's the time they stole nuclear material from us https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Apollo_Affair https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Apollo_Affair On a related note, JFK was trying to shut down Israel's nuclear weapons program in the months before his murder. https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/kennedy-letter-to-ben-gurion-regarding-visit-to-dimona https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/kennedy-letter-to-ben-g...

duped 5y ago
I'm sure he was conducting a lot of international policy initiatives in the months before his assassination
- pphysch 5y ago
  Yeah, like (secret) detente with Fidel Castro [1]. [1] - https://nsarchive2.gwu.edu/NSAEBB/NSAEBB103/index.htm https://nsarchive2.gwu.edu/NSAEBB/NSAEBB103/index.htm

Lammy 5y ago

Why would the tail wag the dog? America benefits so much from all the R&D (in e.g. encryption) that can't happen on US soil. They are not our enemy in any way :) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Report_to_the_Secretary_on_the_Acquiescence_of_This_Government_in_the_Murder_of_the_Jews https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Report_to_the_Secretary_on_the... https://www.nybooks.com/articles/2001/09/20/the-truth-about-wallenberg/ https://www.nybooks.com/articles/2001/09/20/the-truth-about-...

webmaven 5y ago
> Why would the tail wag the dog? America benefits so much from all the R&D (in e.g. encryption) that can't happen on US soil. As far as I know there are few (if any) restrictions on encryption R&D (and even publication) in the US. What is restricted (due to encryption being classed as a 'munition') is the export of robust encryption products to specific countries. Broadly speaking, circumventing the export controls wouldn't be in the interest of the US Intelligence Community, unless those products have backdoors or vulnerabilities known to the IC.

ginja 5y ago

The US spies on its European allies all the time, and I'm sure they spy on Israel too, so that's not super surprising. As for the USS Liberty, some do argue that it was intentional, but both the Israelis and Americans ended up agreeing that it was a mistake. The US is no stranger to such mistakes either, even more egregious ones like when they killed close to 300 civilians aboard a regular passenger flight following an approved route and in contact with ATC (Iran Air 655). In the end both the US and Israel are amoral states that act only according to their economic and strategic interests and I feel that this unites them. I wish it didn't, though.

davidf18 5y ago
Actually, both Israel and the US have a long history of fighting terrorism. Just this past May, terrorists from adjoining Gaza shot 4,300 missiles towards Israeli cities over a 10 day period. Thankfully they were almost all shot down by the Israeli anti-missile defense system, Iron Dome (which the US is now evaluating for use in our Guam base). But still 13 died and 300 injuries occurred during that 10 day period at the hands of terrorists. Israel has been dealing with terrorists hijacking planes for decades. In fact, 2 former Israeli Prime Ministers, Netanyahu and Barak were members of a 16 man special forces team that rescued hostages from Sabena Flight 571. Barak was the leader, Netanyahu was injured. Of course, with 9/11 and other incidents the US has, like Israel, been the target of terrorists. Both the US and Israel have had to deal with terrorists much more than any other developed OECD countries.
stjohnswarts 5y ago
And the European allies spy on the USA, rinse and repeat.
- runarberg 5y ago
  I don’t think so. If they do, it is either a) not nearly on they same scale, or they b) are way more competent about it and less likely to get caught. Given the general incompetence of governments in general (Europe is no exception) I doubt it is (b).

stjohnswarts 5y ago

Anyone who doesn't think the USA and Israel don't spy on each other 24/7 is living in a dream world. Israel is an ally but I don't think that they are our friends.

seoaeu 5y ago
Spying between friendly countries happens all the time. It make diplomacy happen much smoother!

rafale 5y ago

Israel even sinked a US navy ship and got away with it. It gives you an idea how powerful their lobby is. NSO should be declared a terrorist organization.

sgregnt 5y ago

Wow should this comment belong to HN? To me it looks like your comment is very biased and misrepresenting. While you say: > Then there's the time they slaughtered several dozen US navy and NSA personnel with repeated attacks on an unarmed vessel because they didn't like that we were watching them" At the same time the wikipedia article that you linked says: "Both the Israeli and U.S. governments conducted inquiries and issued reports that concluded the attack was a mistake due to Israeli confusion about the ship's identity" The sentiment of this part of your comment seems to be so openly and blatantly full of unsubstantiated hatred towards Israel, that my hope is it will be heavy downvoted.

jacquesm 5y ago
GP may be simply wrong about some of the facts but you are crossing the HN guidelines in multiple ways at once.
- sgregnt 5y ago
  Thank you, I'm sorry for the harsh response and you're right about my phrasing, I improve next time. But I can hardly see how the quoted part of the OP comment maybe explains by > simply wrong about some of the facts to me it seems that OP comment was just pushing for agenda using some hyperbole and hate.
  - jacquesm 5y ago
    > to me it seems that OP comment was just pushing for agenda using some hyperbole and hate. The operative word in that sentence is seems, and you can't know that for sure so you shouldn't respond as though you do. HN has some pretty specific instructions about that.

runarberg 5y ago

I come from a country which US intelligence has many times been caught spying on its officials as recently as 2009[1]. A more recent scheme involved recruiting a convicted criminal with proven antisocial personality disorder[2] to spy on Julian Assanges friends. This has been known about since the 1960s at least among Icelandic communists and other left wing individuals. But until really recently (like 10 years ago) the government has been very sympathetic to this spying. For some reason I feel like the US government officials probably share the sentiment of their Icelandic colleagues of old. These immoral activists that obviously step out of line, but the only thing that bothers the US officials is that they got caught. But even then it is not such a big deal. 1: https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2013/nov/19/nsa-surveillance-iceland-free-speech https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2013/nov/19/nsa-surve... 2: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sigurdur_Thordarson https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sigurdur_Thordarson

tremon 5y ago

The parent comment doesn't imply that it was the Israeli government that was doing the spying (and neither does the article), only that Israel delivered the tools. Who's to say this wasn't the CIA keeping tabs on the NSA, or the NSA using foreign tools for plausible deniability?