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The entire point is not to emphasize the advanced education topics -- which are actually offered pretty universally in California schools -- but to increase the

The entire point is not to emphasize the advanced education topics -- which are actually offered pretty universally in California schools -- but to increase the number of students actually _taking_ those classes through the entire pipeline, and to embed those concepts in a more consistent, structured way. I'm not sure why how you get "walk back the complexity of education" when it's obvious that the current system is broken.

syki 5y ago
I believe you are mistaken. One of the goals is to deny that people have different intellectual abilities. They seek to get rid of tracking and advanced courses. These reforms are related to what is being advocated by www.equitablemath.org. From their website: Students are tracked (into courses/pathways and within the classroom). This is a sign of white supremacy in their view. See this PDF: https://equitablemath.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2020/11/1_STRIDE1.pdf https://equitablemath.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2020/11...
- magicalist 5y ago
  What does this have to do with the actual changes being made?
  - threatofrain 5y ago
    A central pillar of Equitable Math is that all children must always be at the same level up until their last year. This is what is in contention, and not whether the Common Core needs more revision in terms of depth or rearrangement of subjects. Under the Common Core, children in middle school who are ready for Algebra may opt for Algebra, and children who benefit from a delay may opt for a delay — but this is viewed by Equitable Math as sustaining White Supremacy in math education.
    - magicalist 5y ago
      > all children must always be at the same level up until their last year But that's not what's happening, so, again, what does that have to do with the actual changes being made?
      - syki 5y ago
        It’s the goal.
        magicalist 5y ago
        ...of some people but not the recommendations?
        threatofrain 5y ago
        Equitable Math is not "some people". It's the original branding for the program under contention in this forum.
        magicalist 5y ago
        Are the Equitable Math folks the entirety of the stakeholders involved? Will "all children be at the same level up until their last year"? If no to both, it does seem an awful lot like invoking the motivations of some of the people involved as a boogeyman rather than making an argument about the final recommendations themselves.
        threatofrain 5y ago
        Under current proposals, which have yet to be finalized, there are zero specifications for alternative tracks in math, including zero specification for Algebra in middle school. You seem to think that Equitable Math is an entirely separate proposal, and thus the authors of Equitable Math are just "some people". They are program architects. And the stakeholders? Why, all of California of course, including textbook publishers making decisions for 8th grade Algebra textbooks. For schools under the Equitable Math proposals, the goal will be that for any given grade level, all children will be at the same level up until their last year. The explicitly stated reasoning by the program authors is that alternative tracks in math are a form of disparity which promotes White Supremacy. Will this in fact be the final final proposal? That is what is under debate right now.
  - syki 5y ago
    Same agenda from two different organizations. Effectively implementing the reforms will lead to a system where advanced math courses are taken by students in k-12 whose parents have money.
- rflrob 5y ago
  From your PDF: > Administrators should examine programs and policies and how white supremacy impacts student outcomes (e.g., tracking, course selection, intervention rosters). > White supremacy culture shows up in math classrooms when... Students are tracked I interpreted this to mean that tracking is (like course selection) a student outcome that can be impacted by "white supremacy culture", not that tracking is, inherently and unavoidably, a sign of white supremacy. If there's burglars around, unlocked doors are usually correlated with burglary; that doesn't mean you can't leave your doors unlocked, but you're going to want to be careful about it. Similarly, if you live in a society with pervasive racism (read: most societies), it's possible to track students in a way that doesn't reinforce those racist trends, but probably only if you're careful about it. I think I probably agree with you that "white supremacy culture" is, as a term, perhaps more aggressive than it needs to be. Not being deeply embedded in this debate, I'd assume it's going to turn off more people who hear it, think "I'm not a klansman, so this isn't something I need to address" than it will engage people who think racism is bad but haven't considered how their own (probably unexamined) practices are leading to outcomes they don't want.
  - dls2016 5y ago
    Somehow we’re supposed to believe that there’s no white supremacy, that mathematics simply lives in a platonic ideal world where it doesn’t matter that so few African America mathematics phds are awarded each year, for instance.
    - andrewprock 5y ago
      You are confusing racism in the world e.g. our education system, which exists and is quite impactful, with racism in mathematics, which is not at all a well defined concept. If you told me that math education professionals were a fundamental cornerstone of an oppressive culture, I would sign on immediately. But you have to be aware that it is exactly that cadre of professionals that are offering up the recommended changes.
PragmaticPulp 5y ago
> I'm not sure why how you get "walk back the complexity of education" The parent comment literally admitted that they were removing specific complex topics. That is what I was responding to.
- burnished 5y ago
  But also replacing it with other perhaps more pertinent advanced topics? Hard to have a fruitful discussion without a curricula to discuss
- magicalist 5y ago
  > The parent comment literally admitted that they were removing specific complex topics. you quoted and responded to > although they are cutting geometry a bit, which doesn't make as much sense today as it did 100 years ago when far more people grew up to be farmers or ranchers so which specific and complex topics are you referring to in the OP?

syki 5y ago

I believe you are mistaken. One of the goals is to deny that people have different intellectual abilities. They seek to get rid of tracking and advanced courses. These reforms are related to what is being advocated by www.equitablemath.org. From their website: Students are tracked (into courses/pathways and within the classroom). This is a sign of white supremacy in their view. See this PDF: https://equitablemath.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2020/11/1_STRIDE1.pdf https://equitablemath.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2020/11...

magicalist 5y ago
What does this have to do with the actual changes being made?
- threatofrain 5y ago
  A central pillar of Equitable Math is that all children must always be at the same level up until their last year. This is what is in contention, and not whether the Common Core needs more revision in terms of depth or rearrangement of subjects. Under the Common Core, children in middle school who are ready for Algebra may opt for Algebra, and children who benefit from a delay may opt for a delay — but this is viewed by Equitable Math as sustaining White Supremacy in math education.
  - magicalist 5y ago
    > all children must always be at the same level up until their last year But that's not what's happening, so, again, what does that have to do with the actual changes being made?
    - syki 5y ago
      It’s the goal.
      - magicalist 5y ago
        ...of some people but not the recommendations?
        threatofrain 5y ago
        Equitable Math is not "some people". It's the original branding for the program under contention in this forum.
        magicalist 5y ago
        Are the Equitable Math folks the entirety of the stakeholders involved? Will "all children be at the same level up until their last year"? If no to both, it does seem an awful lot like invoking the motivations of some of the people involved as a boogeyman rather than making an argument about the final recommendations themselves.
        threatofrain 5y ago
        Under current proposals, which have yet to be finalized, there are zero specifications for alternative tracks in math, including zero specification for Algebra in middle school. You seem to think that Equitable Math is an entirely separate proposal, and thus the authors of Equitable Math are just "some people". They are program architects. And the stakeholders? Why, all of California of course, including textbook publishers making decisions for 8th grade Algebra textbooks. For schools under the Equitable Math proposals, the goal will be that for any given grade level, all children will be at the same level up until their last year. The explicitly stated reasoning by the program authors is that alternative tracks in math are a form of disparity which promotes White Supremacy. Will this in fact be the final final proposal? That is what is under debate right now.
- syki 5y ago
  Same agenda from two different organizations. Effectively implementing the reforms will lead to a system where advanced math courses are taken by students in k-12 whose parents have money.
rflrob 5y ago
From your PDF: > Administrators should examine programs and policies and how white supremacy impacts student outcomes (e.g., tracking, course selection, intervention rosters). > White supremacy culture shows up in math classrooms when... Students are tracked I interpreted this to mean that tracking is (like course selection) a student outcome that can be impacted by "white supremacy culture", not that tracking is, inherently and unavoidably, a sign of white supremacy. If there's burglars around, unlocked doors are usually correlated with burglary; that doesn't mean you can't leave your doors unlocked, but you're going to want to be careful about it. Similarly, if you live in a society with pervasive racism (read: most societies), it's possible to track students in a way that doesn't reinforce those racist trends, but probably only if you're careful about it. I think I probably agree with you that "white supremacy culture" is, as a term, perhaps more aggressive than it needs to be. Not being deeply embedded in this debate, I'd assume it's going to turn off more people who hear it, think "I'm not a klansman, so this isn't something I need to address" than it will engage people who think racism is bad but haven't considered how their own (probably unexamined) practices are leading to outcomes they don't want.
- dls2016 5y ago
  Somehow we’re supposed to believe that there’s no white supremacy, that mathematics simply lives in a platonic ideal world where it doesn’t matter that so few African America mathematics phds are awarded each year, for instance.
  - andrewprock 5y ago
    You are confusing racism in the world e.g. our education system, which exists and is quite impactful, with racism in mathematics, which is not at all a well defined concept. If you told me that math education professionals were a fundamental cornerstone of an oppressive culture, I would sign on immediately. But you have to be aware that it is exactly that cadre of professionals that are offering up the recommended changes.

PragmaticPulp 5y ago

> I'm not sure why how you get "walk back the complexity of education" The parent comment literally admitted that they were removing specific complex topics. That is what I was responding to.

burnished 5y ago
But also replacing it with other perhaps more pertinent advanced topics? Hard to have a fruitful discussion without a curricula to discuss
magicalist 5y ago
> The parent comment literally admitted that they were removing specific complex topics. you quoted and responded to > although they are cutting geometry a bit, which doesn't make as much sense today as it did 100 years ago when far more people grew up to be farmers or ranchers so which specific and complex topics are you referring to in the OP?