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> NSO Group said in a statement on Thursday that it did not have any indication their tools were used but canceled the relevant accounts and would investigate b

> NSO Group said in a statement on Thursday that it did not have any indication their tools were used but canceled the relevant accounts and would investigate based on the Reuters inquiry. Why would they cancel accounts without knowledge of wrongdoing?

q1w2 5y ago
Aside from that obvious contradiction - this also indicates that the tools they deploy are either NSO hosted or use a licensing system to run. There was a recent Darknet Diaries episode that reported evidence that at least some of the NSO tools are hosted services.
- shmatt 5y ago
  I can't imagine something like this not being in the cloud. The potential for a customer to give their local NSA/8200 the tool to figure out the 0days used is too large Pegasus is only as good as its 0days are secret
  - webmaven 5y ago
    > I can't imagine something like this not being in the cloud. The potential for a customer to give their local NSA/8200 the tool to figure out the 0days used is too large Heck, forget about bothering to extract 0-days; if you have access to the binary, straight-up warez techniques would be applied to nerf any restrictions (licensing or otherwise) on the operation of the software, as well as any monitoring functionality that can "phone home".
  - faeyanpiraat 5y ago
    Couldn’t you hack your own phone and somehow log traffic to get the exploit used?
    - GekkePrutser 5y ago
      Yes you could. You could even use a fake phone which is wired to log everything. A lot of malware attempts to avoid VMs and stimulated environments but the actual 0 day would be before that point. If a state sponsored party really wants to find these zero days I'm sure they can. I would imagine that this is more like what happened with EternalBlue: it's something they know but don't report because it's useful to them too.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
KingOfCoders 5y ago
How do they know that their tools are not used, but know which accounts hacked the phones? Also in other stories they have claimed they do not track who does what.
azernik 5y ago
Because who else is going to be plugging Ugandan phone numbers into NSO software other than the Ugandan government?
moksly 5y ago
> Why would they cancel accounts without knowledge of wrongdoing? I’m not saying that they don’t have that knowledge, and I really don’t mean to offend or be rude, but if the US government asks something of you, you tend to comply wether it’s reasonable or not. I think it’s naive to think of ourselves as living in a just world. Post 9/11 the CIA abducted European citizens with the knowledge of our governments. In more recent years, here in Denmark we had a rather huge scandal when it was revealed that changing governments had allowed American intelligence services direct access to the backbone of our national internet. The list goes on. Its of course unfortunate, but the world we live in is basically a huge turd of authoritarian bullshit where the users and customers have no actual enforceable rights. I mean, even on a much smaller and much more harmless scale, just consider how many times you’ve read about someone losing their Google account here on HN.
- imchillyb 5y ago
  > I think it’s naive to think of ourselves as living in a just world. The US military entered a foreign nation without their knowledge or authorization, abducted a resident, took the resident out to sea, placed a bag over their heads, put concrete shoes on that resident, and then dumped them overboard with no witnesses other than the "Seal Team" carrying out the order. No trial. No witnesses. Only abduction, seclusion, and murder. That's not justice. Those are Mafia Tactics. ___ Does this remind anyone of anything? A Mr. Al. A Mr. Al Capone perhaps? That's right. One of the world's most infamous gangsters, mobsters, crimelords, did this very thing to individuals that Capone didn't want talking to the press, the government, or anyone else that would listen. This is mob-boss behavior, and the US Government does this now. Oh, how about the unlawful imprisonment of 100s of detainees at Guantanamo Bay in Cuba? Secret courts, whose authority is far-reaching with no citizen oversight whatsoever. Yeah the US Federal Government, since 9-11, is a bunch of mobsters with guns. There is no difference in the way our Federal Government acts now, and how 1920s and 1930s mobsters act. Any human being that doesn't recognize the similarity is deluding themselves into believing so.
  - 0cVlTeIATBs 5y ago
    How did you learn about this incident which had no witnesses?
intunderflow 5y ago
Because the US government is one of the few groups that can put real pressure on them and they're in full panic mode
fabianhjr 5y ago
And simultaneusly: - not have any indication their tools were used - canceled the relevant accounts Which "relevant" accounts if NSO's tools weren't used?
- azernik 5y ago
  This is in Uganda. NSO sells only to governments and law enforcement agencies. Therefore, the relevant client would be the Ugandan government.
- Cyph0n 5y ago
  I think it's pretty clear by now that they have 100% visibility into the entire exploitation chain for all of their customers. Their "official statements" mean nothing.
  - mike_d 5y ago
    Well since they do the exploitation on behalf of customers, yes? NSO is very popular with governments that don't have robust domestic intelligence because all you have to do is type a phone number into a web form and in anywhere from an hour to a week you get a point and click GUI for accessing the contents of the phone.
    - spiderice 5y ago
      > all you have to do is type a phone number into a web form and in anywhere from an hour to a week you get a point and click GUI for accessing the contents of the phone. You have a source for this? I genuinely want to know if they make it that simple
      - mike_d 5y ago
        Publicly? No. Should all come out in the Apple lawsuit though. Edit: Rereading the NSO statement they said they blocked exploitation of numbers starting with +1. Take that to mean whatever you'd like.
      - 5y ago
gameswithgo 5y ago
Remember that this group's tools have been used to murder journalists, which they are unapologetic about.
- 4monthsaway 5y ago
  It seems to me their entire repeated justification is to pass the buck to foreign governments that buy their product. It's like the 4th time I've seen this company pop up in my newsfeed in the last 6 months, every time a similar story. I wonder when enough is enough for whoever holds authority over them
- turminal 5y ago
  Dead journalists can't close them down, but the US government can.
  - hellbannedguy 5y ago
    We should have cut down our tax payer aid we give Israel if they (NSA) don't inform our FBI/CIA of every aspect of their business in excruciating detail. Hell--we should have cut of Israel's charity years ago. I'm beginning to wonder if we should have buddied up with Palestine.
  - MomoXenosaga 5y ago
    I don't think the US really cares all that much if Saudi Arabia cracks down on dissidents. It's only bad if Russia or China does it.
  - Eelongate 5y ago
    I think that remains to be seen.
    - frupert52 5y ago
      Only if you can find their remains
    - JumpCrisscross 5y ago
becuz99h 5y ago
They canceled them because “How about this weather, Janet? That’s right, Bob! It’ll be a cold one this week. Sportsball is next.” What weasel words?
2OEH8eoCRo0 5y ago
Sounds like NSO Group is about to be served a subpoena.
bawolff 5y ago
Presumably they wouldn't want to be associated with people who do this sort of thing. (Not neccesarily for ethical reasons, its probably just bad for business) I mean, they could also be lying, but its also pretty standard business practise to not work with people who bring your reputation into disrepute. For example, consider how hard it was for parler to get hosting.

q1w2 5y ago

Aside from that obvious contradiction - this also indicates that the tools they deploy are either NSO hosted or use a licensing system to run. There was a recent Darknet Diaries episode that reported evidence that at least some of the NSO tools are hosted services.

shmatt 5y ago
I can't imagine something like this not being in the cloud. The potential for a customer to give their local NSA/8200 the tool to figure out the 0days used is too large Pegasus is only as good as its 0days are secret
- webmaven 5y ago
  > I can't imagine something like this not being in the cloud. The potential for a customer to give their local NSA/8200 the tool to figure out the 0days used is too large Heck, forget about bothering to extract 0-days; if you have access to the binary, straight-up warez techniques would be applied to nerf any restrictions (licensing or otherwise) on the operation of the software, as well as any monitoring functionality that can "phone home".
- faeyanpiraat 5y ago
  Couldn’t you hack your own phone and somehow log traffic to get the exploit used?
  - GekkePrutser 5y ago
    Yes you could. You could even use a fake phone which is wired to log everything. A lot of malware attempts to avoid VMs and stimulated environments but the actual 0 day would be before that point. If a state sponsored party really wants to find these zero days I'm sure they can. I would imagine that this is more like what happened with EternalBlue: it's something they know but don't report because it's useful to them too.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]

KingOfCoders 5y ago

How do they know that their tools are not used, but know which accounts hacked the phones? Also in other stories they have claimed they do not track who does what.

azernik 5y ago

Because who else is going to be plugging Ugandan phone numbers into NSO software other than the Ugandan government?

moksly 5y ago

> Why would they cancel accounts without knowledge of wrongdoing? I’m not saying that they don’t have that knowledge, and I really don’t mean to offend or be rude, but if the US government asks something of you, you tend to comply wether it’s reasonable or not. I think it’s naive to think of ourselves as living in a just world. Post 9/11 the CIA abducted European citizens with the knowledge of our governments. In more recent years, here in Denmark we had a rather huge scandal when it was revealed that changing governments had allowed American intelligence services direct access to the backbone of our national internet. The list goes on. Its of course unfortunate, but the world we live in is basically a huge turd of authoritarian bullshit where the users and customers have no actual enforceable rights. I mean, even on a much smaller and much more harmless scale, just consider how many times you’ve read about someone losing their Google account here on HN.

imchillyb 5y ago
> I think it’s naive to think of ourselves as living in a just world. The US military entered a foreign nation without their knowledge or authorization, abducted a resident, took the resident out to sea, placed a bag over their heads, put concrete shoes on that resident, and then dumped them overboard with no witnesses other than the "Seal Team" carrying out the order. No trial. No witnesses. Only abduction, seclusion, and murder. That's not justice. Those are Mafia Tactics. ___ Does this remind anyone of anything? A Mr. Al. A Mr. Al Capone perhaps? That's right. One of the world's most infamous gangsters, mobsters, crimelords, did this very thing to individuals that Capone didn't want talking to the press, the government, or anyone else that would listen. This is mob-boss behavior, and the US Government does this now. Oh, how about the unlawful imprisonment of 100s of detainees at Guantanamo Bay in Cuba? Secret courts, whose authority is far-reaching with no citizen oversight whatsoever. Yeah the US Federal Government, since 9-11, is a bunch of mobsters with guns. There is no difference in the way our Federal Government acts now, and how 1920s and 1930s mobsters act. Any human being that doesn't recognize the similarity is deluding themselves into believing so.
- 0cVlTeIATBs 5y ago
  How did you learn about this incident which had no witnesses?

intunderflow 5y ago

Because the US government is one of the few groups that can put real pressure on them and they're in full panic mode

fabianhjr 5y ago

And simultaneusly: - not have any indication their tools were used - canceled the relevant accounts Which "relevant" accounts if NSO's tools weren't used?

azernik 5y ago
This is in Uganda. NSO sells only to governments and law enforcement agencies. Therefore, the relevant client would be the Ugandan government.
Cyph0n 5y ago
I think it's pretty clear by now that they have 100% visibility into the entire exploitation chain for all of their customers. Their "official statements" mean nothing.
- mike_d 5y ago
  Well since they do the exploitation on behalf of customers, yes? NSO is very popular with governments that don't have robust domestic intelligence because all you have to do is type a phone number into a web form and in anywhere from an hour to a week you get a point and click GUI for accessing the contents of the phone.
  - spiderice 5y ago
    > all you have to do is type a phone number into a web form and in anywhere from an hour to a week you get a point and click GUI for accessing the contents of the phone. You have a source for this? I genuinely want to know if they make it that simple
    - mike_d 5y ago
      Publicly? No. Should all come out in the Apple lawsuit though. Edit: Rereading the NSO statement they said they blocked exploitation of numbers starting with +1. Take that to mean whatever you'd like.
    - 5y ago

gameswithgo 5y ago

Remember that this group's tools have been used to murder journalists, which they are unapologetic about.

4monthsaway 5y ago
It seems to me their entire repeated justification is to pass the buck to foreign governments that buy their product. It's like the 4th time I've seen this company pop up in my newsfeed in the last 6 months, every time a similar story. I wonder when enough is enough for whoever holds authority over them
turminal 5y ago
Dead journalists can't close them down, but the US government can.
- hellbannedguy 5y ago
  We should have cut down our tax payer aid we give Israel if they (NSA) don't inform our FBI/CIA of every aspect of their business in excruciating detail. Hell--we should have cut of Israel's charity years ago. I'm beginning to wonder if we should have buddied up with Palestine.
- MomoXenosaga 5y ago
  I don't think the US really cares all that much if Saudi Arabia cracks down on dissidents. It's only bad if Russia or China does it.
- Eelongate 5y ago
  I think that remains to be seen.
  - frupert52 5y ago
    Only if you can find their remains
  - JumpCrisscross 5y ago

becuz99h 5y ago

They canceled them because “How about this weather, Janet? That’s right, Bob! It’ll be a cold one this week. Sportsball is next.” What weasel words?

2OEH8eoCRo0 5y ago

Sounds like NSO Group is about to be served a subpoena.

bawolff 5y ago

Presumably they wouldn't want to be associated with people who do this sort of thing. (Not neccesarily for ethical reasons, its probably just bad for business) I mean, they could also be lying, but its also pretty standard business practise to not work with people who bring your reputation into disrepute. For example, consider how hard it was for parler to get hosting.