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As someone who worked in Israel and is familiar with the tech scene there firsthand I can testify to the fact that the entire cybersecurity industry is intertwi

As someone who worked in Israel and is familiar with the tech scene there firsthand I can testify to the fact that the entire cybersecurity industry is intertwined with the IDF and the Israeli government to such a degree that any differentiation that could be made would be purely superficial. The intelligence units of the IDF are petri dishes in which the talent that later creates the very cybersecurity firms whose products are sold under the direct supervision of the Israeli government is cultivated. There is an entire framework focused around funding and training these graduates of intelligence units to create commercial companies that are essentially subsidiaries of the IDF. And these companies don't discriminate when it comes to sales - clients include tyrants, criminal organizations and even Muslim states. Big corporations e.g. Microsoft are also involved, as they usually end up buying these infosec enterprises, essentially funding the Israeli government / military. It's truly disturbing to see the opportunistic nature of all of this.

joelbluminator 5y ago
> and even Muslim states What's wrong with Muslim states? Israel isn't actually in war with the entire Muslim world you know, though some people really wish that was the case.
rvp-x 5y ago
They're "funding the israeli government/military" as much as a purchase from a US firm funds the US military - they're legally required to pay a tax and some of that money goes into the military. Once released from the military these people have no additional obligation to pay for the military more so than people in more tame business - in fact, they might be seen as owed something for serving in the military, rather than the other way around.
- jongorer 5y ago
  Yes, this is why subsidiaries in the private sector are useful - when something goes terribly wrong with one, like it did with NSO, it doesn't implicate the whole of Israel/IDF - at least not explicitly.
james-redwood 5y ago
As someone who's also worked in Israel and worked with the tech scene there firsthand too I dispute this quite strongly. Israel has mandatory conscription that is rather difficult to get out of, and given their precarious situation in the Middle East I'm not entirely sure I'd blame them. As a result, the entire country spends their lives between the ages of 18-20 working in the military in some capacity, meaning that you can very easily make a case of 'military links' for any industry. The milk you drink from your hotel in Tel Aviv? Owned by a former IDF commando and run by employees who almost entirely all served in the IDF. Tech is no exception, and to just say that because there are IDF graduates who staff the myriad companies in the tech industry so now it's somehow 'controlled by the IDF' is utterly preposterous. Is Tnuva suddenly an IDF controlled subsidiary? If I buy milk from Tnuva, am I suddenly now supporting the IDF and the government? Your assertion that the IDF, Israeli government, and cybersecurity industry are effectively one unit is also bizarre to say the least, considering that they're entirely private companies who refuse to take orders from the government and have raised a stink about attempts to do so on more than one occasion. Your comment becomes more and more laughable when you assert that these companies are 'essentially subsidiaries' of the IDF. Please, you're fooling nobody. The issue here is about control - whether these companies advance Israeli foreign policy goals at the explicit direction of the government. Yet even a quick look at the clients of many of these groups shows this to be not the case.
- homo_ergaster 5y ago
  > given their precarious situation in the Middle East That’s an interesting choice of words but I guess settler colonies with apartheid policies do tend to be precarious
  - redwood 5y ago
    Do you live in an old world non colony then?
  - tome 5y ago
    Israel's enemies attempted two wars of annihilation against it before there were any settlements, unless you consider the existence of a Jewish state within the 1948 armistice lines a "settler colony" (which admittedly some do).
PradeetPatel 5y ago
As someone who worked with Israeli companies, there's something to be said about their diverse and relaxed regulatory requirements, which facilitated many essential services that otherwise wouldn't exist due to draconian legislations in many other countries. To my knowledge, almost all Phishing takedown and ethical deplatforming services are based in Israel.
ArtWomb 5y ago
First of all, the linked LRB article is just a must read. The cyber beat is often the most underreported in investigative journalism. Probably because its so difficult to crack (hehe) into that subculture. But it's clear it's chock full of 21st cloak & dagger stories that perhaps will one day be told. Israeli firms enjoy quite a large footprint in the US too, clustered around Route 128 in Boston for example. I've met many engineers from firms like Carbon Black there. And I got the same sense as the article: when it comes to cyber capability, there is no international system at work, it's every party to fend for themselves. And you thus get these situations where nominal allies are infiltrating their fellow so-called allies! In military budgeting, the requests always come for the next threat. We need an F-35 jet, because our adversaries now have Su-49s. And so the next gen cyber startups are already selling the new: quantum internet. With the tagline: "no eavesdropping over arbitrary distances" ;) https://www.entanglednetworks.com/ https://www.entanglednetworks.com/
seoaeu 5y ago
Could you say a a bit more a about your experience that makes you qualified to “testify” about these things? One of your posts earlier this year noted you were an “undergraduate that mostly deals with front end”
- dadarecit 5y ago
  nice try IDF, but I'm behind 7 proxies.

joelbluminator 5y ago

> and even Muslim states What's wrong with Muslim states? Israel isn't actually in war with the entire Muslim world you know, though some people really wish that was the case.

rvp-x 5y ago

They're "funding the israeli government/military" as much as a purchase from a US firm funds the US military - they're legally required to pay a tax and some of that money goes into the military. Once released from the military these people have no additional obligation to pay for the military more so than people in more tame business - in fact, they might be seen as owed something for serving in the military, rather than the other way around.

jongorer 5y ago
Yes, this is why subsidiaries in the private sector are useful - when something goes terribly wrong with one, like it did with NSO, it doesn't implicate the whole of Israel/IDF - at least not explicitly.

james-redwood 5y ago

As someone who's also worked in Israel and worked with the tech scene there firsthand too I dispute this quite strongly. Israel has mandatory conscription that is rather difficult to get out of, and given their precarious situation in the Middle East I'm not entirely sure I'd blame them. As a result, the entire country spends their lives between the ages of 18-20 working in the military in some capacity, meaning that you can very easily make a case of 'military links' for any industry. The milk you drink from your hotel in Tel Aviv? Owned by a former IDF commando and run by employees who almost entirely all served in the IDF. Tech is no exception, and to just say that because there are IDF graduates who staff the myriad companies in the tech industry so now it's somehow 'controlled by the IDF' is utterly preposterous. Is Tnuva suddenly an IDF controlled subsidiary? If I buy milk from Tnuva, am I suddenly now supporting the IDF and the government? Your assertion that the IDF, Israeli government, and cybersecurity industry are effectively one unit is also bizarre to say the least, considering that they're entirely private companies who refuse to take orders from the government and have raised a stink about attempts to do so on more than one occasion. Your comment becomes more and more laughable when you assert that these companies are 'essentially subsidiaries' of the IDF. Please, you're fooling nobody. The issue here is about control - whether these companies advance Israeli foreign policy goals at the explicit direction of the government. Yet even a quick look at the clients of many of these groups shows this to be not the case.

homo_ergaster 5y ago
> given their precarious situation in the Middle East That’s an interesting choice of words but I guess settler colonies with apartheid policies do tend to be precarious
- redwood 5y ago
  Do you live in an old world non colony then?
- tome 5y ago
  Israel's enemies attempted two wars of annihilation against it before there were any settlements, unless you consider the existence of a Jewish state within the 1948 armistice lines a "settler colony" (which admittedly some do).

PradeetPatel 5y ago

As someone who worked with Israeli companies, there's something to be said about their diverse and relaxed regulatory requirements, which facilitated many essential services that otherwise wouldn't exist due to draconian legislations in many other countries. To my knowledge, almost all Phishing takedown and ethical deplatforming services are based in Israel.

ArtWomb 5y ago

First of all, the linked LRB article is just a must read. The cyber beat is often the most underreported in investigative journalism. Probably because its so difficult to crack (hehe) into that subculture. But it's clear it's chock full of 21st cloak & dagger stories that perhaps will one day be told. Israeli firms enjoy quite a large footprint in the US too, clustered around Route 128 in Boston for example. I've met many engineers from firms like Carbon Black there. And I got the same sense as the article: when it comes to cyber capability, there is no international system at work, it's every party to fend for themselves. And you thus get these situations where nominal allies are infiltrating their fellow so-called allies! In military budgeting, the requests always come for the next threat. We need an F-35 jet, because our adversaries now have Su-49s. And so the next gen cyber startups are already selling the new: quantum internet. With the tagline: "no eavesdropping over arbitrary distances" ;) https://www.entanglednetworks.com/ https://www.entanglednetworks.com/

seoaeu 5y ago

Could you say a a bit more a about your experience that makes you qualified to “testify” about these things? One of your posts earlier this year noted you were an “undergraduate that mostly deals with front end”

dadarecit 5y ago
nice try IDF, but I'm behind 7 proxies.