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Apple still does things that other companies won’t even consider, though. I mean look at the M1 and Rosetta 2. Nobody knew what their plans for ARM were, and ou

by jolux 5y ago

Apple still does things that other companies won’t even consider, though. I mean look at the M1 and Rosetta 2. Nobody knew what their plans for ARM were, and out of the gate they had a processor that was not only faster than anything Intel or AMD could provide, but also a system for translating x86 applications such that they ran with comparable performance on ARM. Even Microsoft didn’t have that on the Surface Pro X! I think it’s easy to forget because of how secretive they are, but it’s pretty clear from their output that Apple has one of the best software engineering teams in the world, if not the absolute best.

bllguo 5y ago
i think this is pretty misleading. apple silicon started in 2010, it was a decade in the making. how can this be reconciled with "nobody knew what their plans for ARM were"
- jolux 5y ago
  In hindsight it’s easy to say that, but would you have guessed in advance that they would succeed like they have? In the span of a year they have made x86-based products look obsolete.
  - soneil 5y ago
    My biggest worry for Apple Silicon was that ARM’s obviously only suited for mobile devices, so it’d only really land in the Air, maybe mb13 - with the concern that this would cause fracturing where “pro” apps were intel only and armbook turned into an AppStore full of flatulent soundboards. ARM seemed obvious but their results certainly didn’t.
  - ksec 5y ago
    >but would you have guessed in advance that they would succeed like they have? Not guessed but projected. I was called an idiot, or son of bitch liar when I suggested its Geekbench score along with all other performance metric it was faster with A12. Only to be met with Intel Fan boys saying Geekbench is not reliable because of a Linus' comment ( That was on Geekbench 3 in case you are wondering, he is fine with GB4 ). x86-based products look obsolete because Intel is now one and half node behind, and nearly 2 generation ( or three years ) of uArch behind their original schedule. And TSMC will officially leap ahead of Intel no later than 2020. I make that projection in 2014. That was before 99% of the internet even knew what TSMC was. From 2011 to 2019. Dumb, stupid, idiot, Intel will get their 10nm done. Intel will have capacity expansion. You dont think the analyst would notice their lack of CapEx? Those were the words of many including senior analyst, two ex Intel engineers, current senior editor. It was only starting in 2020 everything was proven to be correct. ( And they shall remain nameless. But the records are still on certain forums and twitter ) It was painfully obvious. And yet somehow most want to believe the mainstream media narrative rather than actually think and analyse it themselves.
  - halfmatthalfcat 5y ago
    The jury is still out on Apple Silicon. Initial reception was incredibly positive but let's let it all marinate and see what happens. One of the things I think Apple does best is reads the tea leaves on where things are headed, takes their time to develop a solid product but a couple years after they launch, are met with stiff competition on what is considered "best".
    - CharlesW 5y ago
      > The jury is still out on Apple Silicon. In no sense is the jury still out. The x86 hegemony on laptops and desktops is dead.
  - bllguo 5y ago
    no doubt the performance is impressive. it just sounded like you thought apple developed m1 faster than the process actually took. a very minor quibble
shrubble 5y ago
I'm not even the smartest person in my family and I figured out where Apple was going before they even announced the M1, like a year or more before... I am sure that many here on HN were well ahead of me.
the_lucifer 5y ago
Which is an understatement haha. Apple’s Rosetta 2 runs intel applications faster than it used to run natively on intel chips.
arcticbull 5y ago
That's a great example - because they specifically built an Intel-compatible TSO memory model into the M1 CPUs that can be toggled at runtime to avoid a ton of fencing (and at about 70% the performance of ARM64 natively). This let Apple's Intel emulation on ARM run way faster than Microsoft's. They also added hardware support for ObjC/Swift reference counting. These are things no other vendor on earth would do.
- astrange 5y ago
  > They also added hardware support for ObjC/Swift reference counting. Not true. It just has fast atomics because it’s a single SoC.
  - arcticbull 5y ago
    Ah yes, it looks like it's just super-fast/almost-free uncontended atomic operations.
- pjmlp 5y ago
  Chip support for reference counting goes back to 1960's microcoded CPUs, plenty of other vendors have done it.
  - arcticbull 5y ago
    Indeed, and I was also wrong about that, to be clear. I did some research based on your comment, it's really cool too see. I'm a huge fan of old CPU architecture.
- captainmuon 5y ago
  > These are things no other vendor on earth would do I really wonder why. Microsoft has some great engineers. I would assume some of the compiler or kernel people regularly meet up with people from Intel or Qualcomm and talk about future development. It's not really the same, but when I was working in particle physics I remember some Intel engineers really trying hard to get into contact with researchers, and trying to figure out what we need, because they wanted to sell their Xeon Phi / Knights Landing cards to us (basically GPUs for general purpose computing based on X86, now discontinued).
jdonaldson 5y ago
Every time I'm doing a lift and shift, I'm glad I don't have to move an OS around on different chip architectures, maintaining performance speed. PowerPc to Intel, and now Intel to Arm. That's nuts.

by jolux 5y ago

bllguo 5y ago

i think this is pretty misleading. apple silicon started in 2010, it was a decade in the making. how can this be reconciled with "nobody knew what their plans for ARM were"

jolux 5y ago
In hindsight it’s easy to say that, but would you have guessed in advance that they would succeed like they have? In the span of a year they have made x86-based products look obsolete.
- soneil 5y ago
  My biggest worry for Apple Silicon was that ARM’s obviously only suited for mobile devices, so it’d only really land in the Air, maybe mb13 - with the concern that this would cause fracturing where “pro” apps were intel only and armbook turned into an AppStore full of flatulent soundboards. ARM seemed obvious but their results certainly didn’t.
- ksec 5y ago
  >but would you have guessed in advance that they would succeed like they have? Not guessed but projected. I was called an idiot, or son of bitch liar when I suggested its Geekbench score along with all other performance metric it was faster with A12. Only to be met with Intel Fan boys saying Geekbench is not reliable because of a Linus' comment ( That was on Geekbench 3 in case you are wondering, he is fine with GB4 ). x86-based products look obsolete because Intel is now one and half node behind, and nearly 2 generation ( or three years ) of uArch behind their original schedule. And TSMC will officially leap ahead of Intel no later than 2020. I make that projection in 2014. That was before 99% of the internet even knew what TSMC was. From 2011 to 2019. Dumb, stupid, idiot, Intel will get their 10nm done. Intel will have capacity expansion. You dont think the analyst would notice their lack of CapEx? Those were the words of many including senior analyst, two ex Intel engineers, current senior editor. It was only starting in 2020 everything was proven to be correct. ( And they shall remain nameless. But the records are still on certain forums and twitter ) It was painfully obvious. And yet somehow most want to believe the mainstream media narrative rather than actually think and analyse it themselves.
- halfmatthalfcat 5y ago
  The jury is still out on Apple Silicon. Initial reception was incredibly positive but let's let it all marinate and see what happens. One of the things I think Apple does best is reads the tea leaves on where things are headed, takes their time to develop a solid product but a couple years after they launch, are met with stiff competition on what is considered "best".
  - CharlesW 5y ago
    > The jury is still out on Apple Silicon. In no sense is the jury still out. The x86 hegemony on laptops and desktops is dead.
- bllguo 5y ago
  no doubt the performance is impressive. it just sounded like you thought apple developed m1 faster than the process actually took. a very minor quibble

shrubble 5y ago

I'm not even the smartest person in my family and I figured out where Apple was going before they even announced the M1, like a year or more before... I am sure that many here on HN were well ahead of me.

the_lucifer 5y ago

Which is an understatement haha. Apple’s Rosetta 2 runs intel applications faster than it used to run natively on intel chips.

arcticbull 5y ago

That's a great example - because they specifically built an Intel-compatible TSO memory model into the M1 CPUs that can be toggled at runtime to avoid a ton of fencing (and at about 70% the performance of ARM64 natively). This let Apple's Intel emulation on ARM run way faster than Microsoft's. They also added hardware support for ObjC/Swift reference counting. These are things no other vendor on earth would do.

astrange 5y ago
> They also added hardware support for ObjC/Swift reference counting. Not true. It just has fast atomics because it’s a single SoC.
- arcticbull 5y ago
  Ah yes, it looks like it's just super-fast/almost-free uncontended atomic operations.
pjmlp 5y ago
Chip support for reference counting goes back to 1960's microcoded CPUs, plenty of other vendors have done it.
- arcticbull 5y ago
  Indeed, and I was also wrong about that, to be clear. I did some research based on your comment, it's really cool too see. I'm a huge fan of old CPU architecture.
captainmuon 5y ago
> These are things no other vendor on earth would do I really wonder why. Microsoft has some great engineers. I would assume some of the compiler or kernel people regularly meet up with people from Intel or Qualcomm and talk about future development. It's not really the same, but when I was working in particle physics I remember some Intel engineers really trying hard to get into contact with researchers, and trying to figure out what we need, because they wanted to sell their Xeon Phi / Knights Landing cards to us (basically GPUs for general purpose computing based on X86, now discontinued).

jdonaldson 5y ago

Every time I'm doing a lift and shift, I'm glad I don't have to move an OS around on different chip architectures, maintaining performance speed. PowerPc to Intel, and now Intel to Arm. That's nuts.