4 ms·

> ... but 30% are holding everyone back. Not at all and I can turn that argument back: I know non-vaccinated people who stay at home and "evil" fully vaccinate

> ... but 30% are holding everyone back. Not at all and I can turn that argument back: I know non-vaccinated people who stay at home and "evil" fully vaccinated people who go out. It is a fact that vaccinated people can still carry and transmit the virus. It is also a fact that in the EU 40 to 60% of all ICU beds are filled with fully vaccinated people (40% in Spain atm but the number is going up, 50% in Belgium, 60% in the Netherlands, for example). So evil, fully vaccinated (like me btw), people going out, spreading the virus, then falling ill and ending up on an ICU bed. Do you really want to shame people like that? Because if we play that game, then I'll shame the vaccinated people who still have a social life: they do spread the virus. How did these evil fully vaccinated people who are on ICU bed get the virus? Who did they give it too? Why didn't they stay at home / live less of a social life? They're putting an unnecessary burden on the healthcare system... Countries like Gibraltar with 100% vaccination rate still just experienced a wave. Same in Israel, one of the most vaccinated country on earth. > Besides, it's in everyone's best interest to get vaccinated. That is not clear at all. Why not lock down hard, very hard, the old and those known at risk why letting the virus circulate among the healthy population: this, and that is a known fact, creates a much better immunity than the one conferred by the "vaccine". The studies published showed 12x less risk to catch the Delta variant if you had had Covid before compared to someone who just had the shots. If anything: maybe that that "vaccine" which still let people carry and spread the virus is part of the problem. The problem is the old and those at risk have been sold a lie by politicians and big pharma: that by getting the vaccine they'd be safe. So they let their guards down and now they're fully vaccinated... on ICU beds.

glfharris 5y ago
There are more vaccinated people than not, and people with prior health conditions are more likely to be vaccinated so it's not surprising they would be represented in the ITU population.
- native_samples 5y ago
  You'd think so but it's actually the other way around: the people most likely to die are not given vaccines (because there's no point). This can be seen in the UK data where increasing vaccinations causes an increase in deaths in unvaccinated people from non-COVID causes. Clearly that's not a biological link - rather, what's happening is that as the vaccinated population grows, the really sick and dying people get concentrated in the unvaccinated cohort, which then experiences higher death rates. Data is tricky, especially with something like this.
  - notahacker 5y ago
    This effect may exist, but it's dominated by the wider UK population in which vaccination rates for over 80s are 95% and vaccination rates for under 40s closer to 60%, and care homes and immunosuppressed people were priority targets for vaccination. There are people who are too sick to be vaccinated, but they don't tend to make it to ICU beds for COVID. The UK data also shows that all age groups are proportionately far more likely to be admitted to an ICU bed if unvaccinated. I don't think the majority of under 40s admitted to ICUs who were unvaccinated were unvaccinated because they were already expected to die soon.
  - notahacker 5y ago
    This effect may exist, but it's dominated by the wider UK population in which vaccination rates for over 80s are 95% and vaccination rates for under 40s closer to 60%, and care homes and immunosuppressed people were priority targets for vaccination. There are people who are considered too sick to be vaccinated, but I don't think they feature significantly in COVID ICU admissions, not least because ICU isn't likely to save them for the same reason they weren't vaccinated The UK data also shows that all age groups are proportionately far more likely to be admitted to an ICU bed if unvaccinated. I don't think the majority of under 40 ICU COVID admissions who were unvaccinated were unvaccinated because they were already expected to die soon.
- walkhour 5y ago
  That's irrelevant to the points being made. We all know this at this point, it's been said over a thousand times.
rrrrrrrrrrrryan 5y ago
> 40 to 60% of all ICU beds are filled with fully vaccinated people Though correct, this is a dumb statistic used to peddle antivax propaganda. As vaccination rates rise, this number also rises. If 100% of people were vaccinated, 100% of all Covid ICU patients would be vaccinated. Spain has quite high vaccination rates, which is why this ratio is so high there.
- polote 5y ago
  You missed the point of op. The point was that it is not unvaccinated people who fill up icu beds. That's everyone. If you kill all unvaccinated people you have 100% vaccination rate and icu beds will still fill up
- s1artibartfast 5y ago
  The point is that if the majority of ICU beds are filled with vaccinated, you cant scapegoat the unvaccinated for your ICU shortage. If they aren't hurting anyone but themselves, who cares!
- onlyrealcuzzo 5y ago
  Also 40-60% is a big margin. Is that Covid ICU beds, or total ICU beds? What percentage of ICU beds are treating strictly Covid patients? My understanding is that it's <50% most of the year. I don't have a source. Does anyone? ~73% of people in Netherlands are fully vaccinated. If this is all ICU beds (and not just Covid ICU patients) - then you would expect 73% of x% (where x is greater than 50%) to be fully vaccinated patients. Therefore, you're still in a world where unvaccinated patients are 9-10x more likely to be in an ICU bed. But you get this "data point" anti-vax people can spread that "It's actually the vaccinated people clogging up the beds!!"

glfharris 5y ago

There are more vaccinated people than not, and people with prior health conditions are more likely to be vaccinated so it's not surprising they would be represented in the ITU population.

native_samples 5y ago
You'd think so but it's actually the other way around: the people most likely to die are not given vaccines (because there's no point). This can be seen in the UK data where increasing vaccinations causes an increase in deaths in unvaccinated people from non-COVID causes. Clearly that's not a biological link - rather, what's happening is that as the vaccinated population grows, the really sick and dying people get concentrated in the unvaccinated cohort, which then experiences higher death rates. Data is tricky, especially with something like this.
- notahacker 5y ago
  This effect may exist, but it's dominated by the wider UK population in which vaccination rates for over 80s are 95% and vaccination rates for under 40s closer to 60%, and care homes and immunosuppressed people were priority targets for vaccination. There are people who are too sick to be vaccinated, but they don't tend to make it to ICU beds for COVID. The UK data also shows that all age groups are proportionately far more likely to be admitted to an ICU bed if unvaccinated. I don't think the majority of under 40s admitted to ICUs who were unvaccinated were unvaccinated because they were already expected to die soon.
- notahacker 5y ago
  This effect may exist, but it's dominated by the wider UK population in which vaccination rates for over 80s are 95% and vaccination rates for under 40s closer to 60%, and care homes and immunosuppressed people were priority targets for vaccination. There are people who are considered too sick to be vaccinated, but I don't think they feature significantly in COVID ICU admissions, not least because ICU isn't likely to save them for the same reason they weren't vaccinated The UK data also shows that all age groups are proportionately far more likely to be admitted to an ICU bed if unvaccinated. I don't think the majority of under 40 ICU COVID admissions who were unvaccinated were unvaccinated because they were already expected to die soon.
walkhour 5y ago
That's irrelevant to the points being made. We all know this at this point, it's been said over a thousand times.

rrrrrrrrrrrryan 5y ago

> 40 to 60% of all ICU beds are filled with fully vaccinated people Though correct, this is a dumb statistic used to peddle antivax propaganda. As vaccination rates rise, this number also rises. If 100% of people were vaccinated, 100% of all Covid ICU patients would be vaccinated. Spain has quite high vaccination rates, which is why this ratio is so high there.

polote 5y ago
You missed the point of op. The point was that it is not unvaccinated people who fill up icu beds. That's everyone. If you kill all unvaccinated people you have 100% vaccination rate and icu beds will still fill up
s1artibartfast 5y ago
The point is that if the majority of ICU beds are filled with vaccinated, you cant scapegoat the unvaccinated for your ICU shortage. If they aren't hurting anyone but themselves, who cares!
onlyrealcuzzo 5y ago
Also 40-60% is a big margin. Is that Covid ICU beds, or total ICU beds? What percentage of ICU beds are treating strictly Covid patients? My understanding is that it's <50% most of the year. I don't have a source. Does anyone? ~73% of people in Netherlands are fully vaccinated. If this is all ICU beds (and not just Covid ICU patients) - then you would expect 73% of x% (where x is greater than 50%) to be fully vaccinated patients. Therefore, you're still in a world where unvaccinated patients are 9-10x more likely to be in an ICU bed. But you get this "data point" anti-vax people can spread that "It's actually the vaccinated people clogging up the beds!!"