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> In Germany we have a constitution that protects all human's right equally. If Germany's constitution allows vaccine mandates, then your insistence that it pr
by dane-pgp 5y ago
> In Germany we have a constitution that protects all human's right equally.
If Germany's constitution allows vaccine mandates, then your insistence that it protects all human's rights will be of little comfort to the people who are forced to take the vaccination without their consent and in violation of their conscience.
At best you are saying "Having control over what medical treatments are done to you is not a human right", and at worst you are saying "Antivaxers aren't human". Either way, you are putting too much trust in a system that claims to protect human rights, and totalitarians generally manage to find a way to twist the law to justify what they are doing, whether the excuse is "military necessity", "medical necessity", or something else.
- Pyramus 5y ago> the people who are forced to take the vaccination without their consent and in violation of their conscience. Your imagination got the better of you here - nobody will be forced to vaccinate, especially not without their consent. Similar to how nobody comes to your car and forces you to wear a seatbelt. Germany's constitution is quite clear about this, for apparent, historic reasons.
- baggy_trough 5y agoYou won't be physically forced to, but you also won't be allowed to do most of the things we normally consider that people have a right to do unless you comply. That's really a non physical way of forcing compliance (like saying I'll fire you from your job unless you agree).
- daylp 5y agoSo it will be "voluntary" by imposing successively higher fines until you cannot pay. Then your credit score will be ruined, you can't pay rent and join the homeless. Completely voluntary, just like compulsory state television fees. Incidentally, both state radio fees and mandatory vaccination were immensely popular in the Third Reich.
- Xylakant 5y agoThat’s an odd statement there. The mandatory vaccination against smallpox stems from the Kaiserreich (1874) and was loosened at the time of the Third Reich, to be reestablished after the 2nd world war, until it started phasing out in 1975. The state radio fees are a construct that was established after the Second World War, precisely because it was considered imperative to have a public radio/television that was not under government control.
- ajsnigrutin 5y agoSo, how is paying a fine (as in eg. greece) not a form of "force"? In one way, if you're rich, you can pay for your right not to wear a seatbelt.. i mean, get the vaccine, but for normal people, the current measures are basically them being forced to do something that they don't want to do.
- fartattack 5y agoThe article says that Germany is planning to make the shot compulsory, literally this article that these comments are ostensibly discussing, in the second paragraph, so I'm not sure where you got the idea nobody is going to be forced to get vaccinated, but the gaslighting isn't appreciated
- Xylakant 5y agoYou won’t be forcefully vaccinated. But you can be fined for not taking the vaccine and you can be restricted in what jobs you work in. That’s how it works with the current limited vaccine mandate for measles.
- stormking 5y agoAnd how is that not forcing?
- drran 5y agoBecause this is not forcing?
- baggy_trough 5y agoWhen someone is "forced into early retirement" do you think that means that police dragged him away?
- drran 5y agoYep, police or a guard can drag him away if he will show at work. He cannot pay a $100 fine or take a shot and continue to work like before. :-/
- baggy_trough 5y agoI don’t think you are aware of the definition of “to force”. It does not refer only to physical force.
- lsiebert 5y agoI think I'd rather some people be vaccinated without their consent with a safe vaccine than have some people be infected without their consent with a deadly illness. We know mask mandates, vaccines, and other medical interventions save lives, reduce transmission, reduce hospitalizations, reduce long term symptoms and long covid rates, and reduce deaths, and they may even reduce mutation rates. So the choice to vaccinate, that you paint as one of conscience and consent don't just affect the individual making the choice, but all the people around them.
- ajsnigrutin 5y agoWhy? I mean... we let people smoke and die due to that... why not due to covid too? The vaccines are too weak to actually achieve herd immunity, so pretty much everyone will get in contact with covid, sooner or later,... some will beat it by themselves and some will, sadly, die. If people want to take the risk of covid, why force them? I got vaccinated and I don't care if some people don't want to do it.
- Xylakant 5y agoWe no longer let people smoke in places where others are affected. If COVID would only affect the unvaccinated person, I’d agree with you. But vaccination reduces the risk of catching the disease and thus the risk of passing it on to others. If unvaccinated people would all stay home and enter voluntary lockdown, this wouldn’t be a discussion. But they do not. They get infected. They pass it on. In Berlin, there’s a recommendation to not engage in dangerous activities, because there might not be an ICU bed if you have an accident. Planned surgery for cancer patients is postponed, because there’s no bed for aftercare. They’re all taken by mostly unvaccinated COVID patients. If the unvaccinated would all voluntarily stay home and suffer there, I’d agree with you. But they don’t. They’re taking the bed that I’ll need if I get run over by a car in the street.
- codr7 5y agoVaccinated people get infected and pass it on too, what's your point here?
- deleted 5y ago[deleted]
- timdaub 5y agoIt seems you're not understanding the German situation. But also: consider that your theoretical argument made out of anxiety for some imaginary totaliarism makes, in today's context, no sense: Triage is happening and people with better chances of survival (e.g. everyone vaccinated) are getting the beds. So already "antivaxers are treated less like humans".
- Xylakant 5y agoIn fact, germany had a vaccine mandate against smallpox until 1975 https://de.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Impfpflicht https://de.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Impfpflicht and we have one against measles, though the mandate only requires children and people in certain fields of work to be vaccinated (teachers,caregivers etc.) The German constitutional court ruled in 1959 that the vaccine mandate against smallpox is constitutional.
- this_user 5y ago> If Germany's constitution allows vaccine mandates, then your insistence that it protects all human's rights will be of little comfort to the people who are forced to take the vaccination without their consent and in violation of their conscience. There is no rational reason not be be vaccinated. Anyone who refuses deliberately chooses to endanger themselves and everyone around them, and ultimately the majority is paying the price for the reckless behaviour of a minority in more than one way. Mandatory vaccinations are an instrument that has been used effectively and repeatedly throughout history. It has also held up in courts including in the US where SCOTUS has argued that individual liberty is not absolute and finds its limits where its exercise can harm the health and safety of others.
- worik 5y agoIt is not about rational debate or legal argument. Both are red herrings.