6 ms·

One of the most salient thing about rights is that the majority isn't permitted take them away whenever it suits them.

rrrrrrrrrrrryan 5y ago
Access to healthcare is considered a right in Germany. They're mandating vaccines so that they can continue to provide all their citizens with this human right. Sometimes rights clash, which is why you can't yell "fire" in a crowded theater despite having the right to freedom of speech. An individual's right to do X on principle can absolutely be overruled by the right for a larger group of people to continue living on this earth.
- floren 5y ago
  > Sometimes rights clash, which is why you can't yell "fire" in a crowded theater despite having the right to freedom of speech. The decision about yelling fire in a crowded theater originates from Schenck v. United States, in which the Supreme Court decided it's OK for the US Government to suppress anti-draft protests; consider if you wish to build arguments on this foundation.
- ghoward 5y ago
  > Access to healthcare is considered a right in Germany. > They're mandating vaccines so that they can continue to provide all their citizens with this human right. This is exactly why those people are wrong. True rights never clash.
  - rbanffy 5y ago
    True rights never clash. People need to be forced to be vaccinated because nobody has a right to spread a deadly disease, so, even if they think they won’t, vaccines will help preventing people from killing others by not being vaccinated.
    - ghoward 5y ago
      > nobody has a right to spread a deadly disease Including the vaccinated, who can still spread it, so I guess we must lock them up since they are already vaccinated, and we can't stop them from spreading the virus otherwise. Saying that people don't have a right to spread the virus is disingenuous. The reality is that people don't have a right to be free from sickness or death. You can only make personal decisions about risk you are willing to take. To force other people to do things to make you safe is not a right.
      - EricE 5y ago
        What's even more ridiculous about this line of "reasoning" is it completely ignores the fact that animals can carry and spread COVID too. Are they going to advocate that we capture and vaccinate all the animals that humans can or could come in contact with? It's utterly preposterous - but anyone that doesn't agree with them are the irrational ones. Propaganda and emotions running amok.
        rbanffy 5y ago
        Well… some animals are dangerous. You can get deadly diseases from them, or simply be directly killed by them for lunch or the lulz. So, I strongly suggest people get vaccinated so, at least, they don’t infect the bear that eats them.
      - rbanffy 5y ago
        > Including the vaccinated, who can still spread it True, but when vaxxeds spread to other people who are vaccinated, nobody dies. It’s the unvaccinated who endanger themselves (their problem) and others (society’s problem) with their unwillingness to help. We should isolate the unvaccinated for their own protection. > Saying that people don't have a right to spread the virus is disingenuous. Try to deliberately infect someone with a disease such as AIDS, HPV, or smallpox and let me know what the law says about that. > You can only make personal decisions about risk you are willing to take. You can’t, for instance, drink and drive. It’s not your personal decision the moment your decision endangers others. > To force other people to do things to make you safe is not a right. Someone who insists in DUI and kills people regularly will end up being forced to live in a prison.
  - rrrrrrrrrrrryan 5y ago
    From a philosophical perspective, you're not wrong, but real life constrains us greatly. Germany could theoretically disallow unvaccinated people access to their ICUs without trampling any rights. It would get messy. Germans aren't fond of messy solutions. They are a very practical people, and they've decided to take a more practical approach (vaccine mandates) that might respect individual rights less, but also results in much less death for those very individuals and the rest of society.
    - ghoward 5y ago
      You not wrong either, but I seem to remember that the Germans had a mighty neat, i.e., non-messy "solution" (some would say a "final" one) for a "problem" they thought they had. Throughout history, making people second-class citizens has never resulted in anything good. If you can name one instance in history where making people second-class citizens was a net benefit, I will eat my words.
      - rrrrrrrrrrrryan 5y ago
        I'll suppress the obvious Godwin's law call-out to just state that "unvaccinated" is not a protected class, and we probably both agree that carrots tend to work better than sticks.
        ghoward 5y ago
        The Jews were not a protected class in Germany at the time either. In fact, "protected class" is an American legal term (from the Civil Rights Act of 1964, I believe?), so I don't know why you even mentioned that.
        inkblotuniverse 5y ago
        Oh, it's not a orotected class?! That's fine, then! If we take nonrepentant apostates off the list of protected classes, do we get to lock them up, too? :)
- ericd 5y ago
  Ironically, the ruling that spawned the "fire in a theater" meme about limits on free speech was largely overturned: https://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2012/11/its-time-to-stop-using-the-fire-in-a-crowded-theater-quote/264449/ https://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2012/11/its-tim...
  - rbanffy 5y ago
    If it weren’t, Fox News would be unable to operate.
  - Eelongate 5y ago
    Thankfully so, since "shouting fire in a theater" was an incredibly lame euphemism for telling people to dodge the draft.
- jansan 5y ago
  How exactly does forcing teenagers to be vaccinated help with the situation on the intensive care units?
  - rrrrrrrrrrrryan 5y ago
    Fewer disease vectors (the teens that avoid infection due to vaccination) and smaller disease vectors (the teens that get less sick) leads to less spread.
    - jansan 5y ago
      So this justifies treating teenagers the same way as 60 year olds who are not willing to get vaccinated and actually have a high risk on ending in the ICU? Even worse, a pensioner can live quite well with the new restrictions while the teenager's family is not even allowed to meet other families anymore. You can twist it all you want, this is absurdly inhumane (and in stark contrast to the federal vaccination commission's recommendation).
mnd999 5y ago
They are in the UK
frenchyatwork 5y ago
One of the most salient thing about rights is that people constantly disagree about them and they often disagree with each other. For example * My right to speak freely and say cruel things vs the right of someone else to live a peaceful life free of terror. * The right of a privacy for a politician vs the right of the pubic to know about their character & personal life. * The right of a capitalist to buy out all the competition vs the right of the consumer to have choice.

Access to healthcare is considered a right in Germany. They're mandating vaccines so that they can continue to provide all their citizens with this human right. Sometimes rights clash, which is why you can't yell "fire" in a crowded theater despite having the right to freedom of speech. An individual's right to do X on principle can absolutely be overruled by the right for a larger group of people to continue living on this earth.

floren 5y ago
> Sometimes rights clash, which is why you can't yell "fire" in a crowded theater despite having the right to freedom of speech. The decision about yelling fire in a crowded theater originates from Schenck v. United States, in which the Supreme Court decided it's OK for the US Government to suppress anti-draft protests; consider if you wish to build arguments on this foundation.
ghoward 5y ago
> Access to healthcare is considered a right in Germany. > They're mandating vaccines so that they can continue to provide all their citizens with this human right. This is exactly why those people are wrong. True rights never clash.
- rbanffy 5y ago
  True rights never clash. People need to be forced to be vaccinated because nobody has a right to spread a deadly disease, so, even if they think they won’t, vaccines will help preventing people from killing others by not being vaccinated.
  - ghoward 5y ago
    > nobody has a right to spread a deadly disease Including the vaccinated, who can still spread it, so I guess we must lock them up since they are already vaccinated, and we can't stop them from spreading the virus otherwise. Saying that people don't have a right to spread the virus is disingenuous. The reality is that people don't have a right to be free from sickness or death. You can only make personal decisions about risk you are willing to take. To force other people to do things to make you safe is not a right.
    - EricE 5y ago
      What's even more ridiculous about this line of "reasoning" is it completely ignores the fact that animals can carry and spread COVID too. Are they going to advocate that we capture and vaccinate all the animals that humans can or could come in contact with? It's utterly preposterous - but anyone that doesn't agree with them are the irrational ones. Propaganda and emotions running amok.
      - rbanffy 5y ago
        Well… some animals are dangerous. You can get deadly diseases from them, or simply be directly killed by them for lunch or the lulz. So, I strongly suggest people get vaccinated so, at least, they don’t infect the bear that eats them.
    - rbanffy 5y ago
      > Including the vaccinated, who can still spread it True, but when vaxxeds spread to other people who are vaccinated, nobody dies. It’s the unvaccinated who endanger themselves (their problem) and others (society’s problem) with their unwillingness to help. We should isolate the unvaccinated for their own protection. > Saying that people don't have a right to spread the virus is disingenuous. Try to deliberately infect someone with a disease such as AIDS, HPV, or smallpox and let me know what the law says about that. > You can only make personal decisions about risk you are willing to take. You can’t, for instance, drink and drive. It’s not your personal decision the moment your decision endangers others. > To force other people to do things to make you safe is not a right. Someone who insists in DUI and kills people regularly will end up being forced to live in a prison.
- rrrrrrrrrrrryan 5y ago
  From a philosophical perspective, you're not wrong, but real life constrains us greatly. Germany could theoretically disallow unvaccinated people access to their ICUs without trampling any rights. It would get messy. Germans aren't fond of messy solutions. They are a very practical people, and they've decided to take a more practical approach (vaccine mandates) that might respect individual rights less, but also results in much less death for those very individuals and the rest of society.
  - ghoward 5y ago
    You not wrong either, but I seem to remember that the Germans had a mighty neat, i.e., non-messy "solution" (some would say a "final" one) for a "problem" they thought they had. Throughout history, making people second-class citizens has never resulted in anything good. If you can name one instance in history where making people second-class citizens was a net benefit, I will eat my words.
    - rrrrrrrrrrrryan 5y ago
      I'll suppress the obvious Godwin's law call-out to just state that "unvaccinated" is not a protected class, and we probably both agree that carrots tend to work better than sticks.
      - ghoward 5y ago
        The Jews were not a protected class in Germany at the time either. In fact, "protected class" is an American legal term (from the Civil Rights Act of 1964, I believe?), so I don't know why you even mentioned that.
      - inkblotuniverse 5y ago
        Oh, it's not a orotected class?! That's fine, then! If we take nonrepentant apostates off the list of protected classes, do we get to lock them up, too? :)
ericd 5y ago
Ironically, the ruling that spawned the "fire in a theater" meme about limits on free speech was largely overturned: https://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2012/11/its-time-to-stop-using-the-fire-in-a-crowded-theater-quote/264449/ https://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2012/11/its-tim...
- rbanffy 5y ago
  If it weren’t, Fox News would be unable to operate.
- Eelongate 5y ago
  Thankfully so, since "shouting fire in a theater" was an incredibly lame euphemism for telling people to dodge the draft.
jansan 5y ago
How exactly does forcing teenagers to be vaccinated help with the situation on the intensive care units?
- rrrrrrrrrrrryan 5y ago
  Fewer disease vectors (the teens that avoid infection due to vaccination) and smaller disease vectors (the teens that get less sick) leads to less spread.
  - jansan 5y ago
    So this justifies treating teenagers the same way as 60 year olds who are not willing to get vaccinated and actually have a high risk on ending in the ICU? Even worse, a pensioner can live quite well with the new restrictions while the teenager's family is not even allowed to meet other families anymore. You can twist it all you want, this is absurdly inhumane (and in stark contrast to the federal vaccination commission's recommendation).

mnd999 5y ago

They are in the UK

frenchyatwork 5y ago

One of the most salient thing about rights is that people constantly disagree about them and they often disagree with each other. For example * My right to speak freely and say cruel things vs the right of someone else to live a peaceful life free of terror. * The right of a privacy for a politician vs the right of the pubic to know about their character & personal life. * The right of a capitalist to buy out all the competition vs the right of the consumer to have choice.