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Its worth remembering that division is due to the other side always. This is an absolute statement as division is literally caused by dividing between "sides".

by chippy 5y ago

Its worth remembering that division is due to the other side always. This is an absolute statement as division is literally caused by dividing between "sides". You get a divided country when the people within it divides each other into sides. Its never been the case when people have said "our side has caused the division". never. That is the irony you should be finding! If you do finally see this irony you might find more nuance, but maybe more frustration and more uncertainty and confusion but less anger and possibly more empathy to the other. That's why its so easy for people to divide, as its less painful. Dividing and categorizing is how we make sense of the world, but it can be a curse too.

timdaub 5y ago
And how exactly does this statement now help to address the situation?
- prohobo 5y ago
  I suppose by helping people become open to other, possibly more reasonable, options.
- __blockcipher__ 5y ago
  Well it seems to follow pretty naturally that if you think that division is a problem, then being aware of how your attitude is the definition of division seems pretty important.
- chippy 5y ago
  I would hope it might help you with your observation about the division of the country, and with your feeling of irony on another subject, and using both of these skills towards understanding. So for the situation in general: if enough people are less divisive, perhaps a less divided country can occur.
op00to 5y ago
No, vaccinations are how we get out and people who are medically able to get them and don’t are hurting each and every human on this planet due to their own hubris.
- guscost 5y ago
  Want a war? That’s all you’re going to get if you persist with this paranoid hypochondriac fascism.
  - timdaub 5y ago
    A war with sneezers?
    - guscost 5y ago
      A war with the enormous majority that either has refused this treatment, or just believes that others should have the right to refuse.
      - dragonwriter 5y ago
        There is not an “enormous majority”, even in the relatively vaccine-hesitant US, that opposes vaccine mandates; there is, on recent polls, within the MoE of 50% that opposes a general adult mandate, and only a minority that opposes slightly narrower mandates attached to participation in most significant public activities. In Germany, the subject of the story, support for a general mandate was in the high 50s a month ago and around 70% now. Opposition is a rapidly shrinking minority.
        guscost 5y ago
        You believe polls? There is nothing “hesitant” about it - we see exactly what is going on, and we will never accept this tyranny. If you insist on testing your odds with this, you will only cause unimaginable suffering, and then lose.
        kelnos 5y ago
        > You believe polls? If not polls, then what should we believe? Your anecdotes? Your gut feeling?
kelnos 5y ago
If 70% want one thing and 30% want another, it doesn't matter who "caused" the division; in a democratic society you should be doing the thing that 70% of the people want. Except! And this is a big "except": when doing the thing the majority wants would violate the civil rights of the minority. The problem (in the US, at least; I can't speak for Germany) is that the minority is trying to paint vaccination as a civil rights issue, essentially. I can see the argument, but it all feels a bit hypocritical, as I expect most of the minority who are complaining now were vaccinated (by mandate) against other diseases when they entered public school as children (and vaccinate their children by mandate before enrolling them in school). And while there is still some resistance to even that in some quarters, it is nowhere near the size of the resistance toward COVID vaccinations.
- prohobo 5y ago
  It's not exactly hypocritical because we know that the Covid vaccines were both rushed and lied about. We still don't have full transparency about them, and the companies that made them are trying to make it as opaque as possible. What most people expect is a vaccine that works as it was said it would, and isn't in a quagmire of censorship and profiteering. I think those are very real concerns that have not, and will not be addressed - and so, you will never get everyone on board.
  - VyperCard 5y ago
    Yeah, mostly lied about by the anti vax guys.
    - prohobo 5y ago
      Did the antivaxxers lie about how the vaccines would make us reach herd immunity and stop transmission? Or that they would end the crisis? Or that there are no risks involved in taking them? They may have over-exaggerated and come up with bullshit counter-narratives, but they were right about the core of the issue: we can't trust leaders who lie all the time.
      - 5y ago
tablespoon 5y ago
>> I find it ironic that there are plenty comments that paint the picture of how mandatory vaccinations divide the country.... >> How much more divided can a country already be when the absolute democratic majority has made their decision months ago to take the shot but 30% are holding everyone back. > Its worth remembering that division is due to the other side always. That's an unhelpful muddying of the waters. If some clear minority is undermining a popular policy, especially if it's doing so for irrational reasons or out of spite, you can definitely point to that minority as the cause of the division.
- abduhl 5y ago
  If only we could apply such a black and white view to things like racism and LGBTQ rights.
  - tablespoon 5y ago
    > If only we could apply such a black and white view to things like racism and LGBTQ rights. You shouldn't read a pithy comment as a complete statement on any manner, and mine certainly indicated there's more complexity that wasn't being covered. That said, in this case, the COVID anti-vaxers are the source of this division.
  - akiselev 5y ago
    That’s literally the opposite of a black and white view - why the minority is blocking the majority is what creates the gray area. It’s the difference between small c conservatives who have reasonable concerns about how affirmative action might worsen the problem and flaming racists who think they’re fundamentally superior.
  - KarlKemp 5y ago
    Are you under the impression that only a minority cares about minority rights and, for example, heterosexual people would uniformly oppose LGBTQ rights? In that case I’ve got news for you. But first, I need you to stay strong: President Kennedy was….
- Sophistifunk 5y ago
redmare80 5y ago
>Its worth remembering that division is due to the other side always. When the other side is a small minority that is contributing to horrible public health outcomes, then yes, absolutely due to them.
- ahofmann 5y ago
  Your post shows very well what the parent meant: you are blaming the other side for a horrible outcome. It is the Virus that creates a horrible situation and the very irrational reaction to it from all sides. We are in this mess together and everyone is spreading the virus, vaccinated or not.
  - redmare80 5y ago
    I am in fact blaming "the other side" for a horrible outcome (ERs packed with covid patients when that is unnecessary, leading to worse outcomes for non covid patients). What you've said is misleading. > It is the Virus that creates a horrible situation And it is people refusing to get vaccinated that greatly exacerbates this horrible situation. What you've said is misleading. > We are in this mess together and everyone is spreading the virus, vaccinated or not Vaccinated people spread the virus less and go to the hospital less. What you've said is misleading.
    - dukeofdoom 5y ago
      A bucket with 3 holes will get the floor just as wet as a bucket with 6 holes given enough time. And covid will be here for a long time. In fact the buckets with 3 holes are now encouraged to walk around the room.
    - MauranKilom 5y ago
      > Vaccinated people spread the virus less I recently learned that viral loads is actually the same between vaccinated and unvaccinated people who test positive for COVID19. That's not technically the same thing as the rate of spread, but it is really first and foremost the severity of the disease that the vaccines help with. (Agree with everything else.)
buttercraft 5y ago
I think the problem is that the stakes are higher for one side...
quitit 5y ago
Cool - We'll save this kind of discussion for when we're choosing ice cream flavours. Not making decisions that affect the health of not just the nation, but the follow-on global ramifications due to mutations. As for the "other side" - this is what democracy is about. So if the elected representatives and majority of the nation are for it, then that's the decision made.

by chippy 5y ago

timdaub 5y ago

And how exactly does this statement now help to address the situation?

prohobo 5y ago
I suppose by helping people become open to other, possibly more reasonable, options.
__blockcipher__ 5y ago
Well it seems to follow pretty naturally that if you think that division is a problem, then being aware of how your attitude is the definition of division seems pretty important.
chippy 5y ago
I would hope it might help you with your observation about the division of the country, and with your feeling of irony on another subject, and using both of these skills towards understanding. So for the situation in general: if enough people are less divisive, perhaps a less divided country can occur.

op00to 5y ago

No, vaccinations are how we get out and people who are medically able to get them and don’t are hurting each and every human on this planet due to their own hubris.

guscost 5y ago
Want a war? That’s all you’re going to get if you persist with this paranoid hypochondriac fascism.
- timdaub 5y ago
  A war with sneezers?
  - guscost 5y ago
    A war with the enormous majority that either has refused this treatment, or just believes that others should have the right to refuse.
    - dragonwriter 5y ago
      There is not an “enormous majority”, even in the relatively vaccine-hesitant US, that opposes vaccine mandates; there is, on recent polls, within the MoE of 50% that opposes a general adult mandate, and only a minority that opposes slightly narrower mandates attached to participation in most significant public activities. In Germany, the subject of the story, support for a general mandate was in the high 50s a month ago and around 70% now. Opposition is a rapidly shrinking minority.
      - guscost 5y ago
        You believe polls? There is nothing “hesitant” about it - we see exactly what is going on, and we will never accept this tyranny. If you insist on testing your odds with this, you will only cause unimaginable suffering, and then lose.
        kelnos 5y ago
        > You believe polls? If not polls, then what should we believe? Your anecdotes? Your gut feeling?

kelnos 5y ago

If 70% want one thing and 30% want another, it doesn't matter who "caused" the division; in a democratic society you should be doing the thing that 70% of the people want. Except! And this is a big "except": when doing the thing the majority wants would violate the civil rights of the minority. The problem (in the US, at least; I can't speak for Germany) is that the minority is trying to paint vaccination as a civil rights issue, essentially. I can see the argument, but it all feels a bit hypocritical, as I expect most of the minority who are complaining now were vaccinated (by mandate) against other diseases when they entered public school as children (and vaccinate their children by mandate before enrolling them in school). And while there is still some resistance to even that in some quarters, it is nowhere near the size of the resistance toward COVID vaccinations.

prohobo 5y ago
It's not exactly hypocritical because we know that the Covid vaccines were both rushed and lied about. We still don't have full transparency about them, and the companies that made them are trying to make it as opaque as possible. What most people expect is a vaccine that works as it was said it would, and isn't in a quagmire of censorship and profiteering. I think those are very real concerns that have not, and will not be addressed - and so, you will never get everyone on board.
- VyperCard 5y ago
  Yeah, mostly lied about by the anti vax guys.
  - prohobo 5y ago
    Did the antivaxxers lie about how the vaccines would make us reach herd immunity and stop transmission? Or that they would end the crisis? Or that there are no risks involved in taking them? They may have over-exaggerated and come up with bullshit counter-narratives, but they were right about the core of the issue: we can't trust leaders who lie all the time.
    - 5y ago

tablespoon 5y ago

>> I find it ironic that there are plenty comments that paint the picture of how mandatory vaccinations divide the country.... >> How much more divided can a country already be when the absolute democratic majority has made their decision months ago to take the shot but 30% are holding everyone back. > Its worth remembering that division is due to the other side always. That's an unhelpful muddying of the waters. If some clear minority is undermining a popular policy, especially if it's doing so for irrational reasons or out of spite, you can definitely point to that minority as the cause of the division.

abduhl 5y ago
If only we could apply such a black and white view to things like racism and LGBTQ rights.
- tablespoon 5y ago
  > If only we could apply such a black and white view to things like racism and LGBTQ rights. You shouldn't read a pithy comment as a complete statement on any manner, and mine certainly indicated there's more complexity that wasn't being covered. That said, in this case, the COVID anti-vaxers are the source of this division.
- akiselev 5y ago
  That’s literally the opposite of a black and white view - why the minority is blocking the majority is what creates the gray area. It’s the difference between small c conservatives who have reasonable concerns about how affirmative action might worsen the problem and flaming racists who think they’re fundamentally superior.
- KarlKemp 5y ago
  Are you under the impression that only a minority cares about minority rights and, for example, heterosexual people would uniformly oppose LGBTQ rights? In that case I’ve got news for you. But first, I need you to stay strong: President Kennedy was….
Sophistifunk 5y ago

redmare80 5y ago

>Its worth remembering that division is due to the other side always. When the other side is a small minority that is contributing to horrible public health outcomes, then yes, absolutely due to them.

ahofmann 5y ago
Your post shows very well what the parent meant: you are blaming the other side for a horrible outcome. It is the Virus that creates a horrible situation and the very irrational reaction to it from all sides. We are in this mess together and everyone is spreading the virus, vaccinated or not.
- redmare80 5y ago
  I am in fact blaming "the other side" for a horrible outcome (ERs packed with covid patients when that is unnecessary, leading to worse outcomes for non covid patients). What you've said is misleading. > It is the Virus that creates a horrible situation And it is people refusing to get vaccinated that greatly exacerbates this horrible situation. What you've said is misleading. > We are in this mess together and everyone is spreading the virus, vaccinated or not Vaccinated people spread the virus less and go to the hospital less. What you've said is misleading.
  - dukeofdoom 5y ago
    A bucket with 3 holes will get the floor just as wet as a bucket with 6 holes given enough time. And covid will be here for a long time. In fact the buckets with 3 holes are now encouraged to walk around the room.
  - MauranKilom 5y ago
    > Vaccinated people spread the virus less I recently learned that viral loads is actually the same between vaccinated and unvaccinated people who test positive for COVID19. That's not technically the same thing as the rate of spread, but it is really first and foremost the severity of the disease that the vaccines help with. (Agree with everything else.)

buttercraft 5y ago

I think the problem is that the stakes are higher for one side...

quitit 5y ago

Cool - We'll save this kind of discussion for when we're choosing ice cream flavours. Not making decisions that affect the health of not just the nation, but the follow-on global ramifications due to mutations. As for the "other side" - this is what democracy is about. So if the elected representatives and majority of the nation are for it, then that's the decision made.