6 ms·

No, it's not totalitarian. In Germany we have a constitution that protects all human's right equally. If there's good reasons why you can't receive a vaccinati

No, it's not totalitarian. In Germany we have a constitution that protects all human's right equally. If there's good reasons why you can't receive a vaccination, I'm pretty sure nobody can force you. Not even the state. Go to your doctor to get an attest that exempts you from the mandatory vaccination. Nothing easier than that in Germany. And again: You are just speculating. Nobody knows if a vaccine mandate leaves people behind it tropes. You cannot know it, because it hasn't happened. I'd rather make decisions based on facts than just speculating about hypotheticals.

dane-pgp 5y ago
> In Germany we have a constitution that protects all human's right equally. If Germany's constitution allows vaccine mandates, then your insistence that it protects all human's rights will be of little comfort to the people who are forced to take the vaccination without their consent and in violation of their conscience. At best you are saying "Having control over what medical treatments are done to you is not a human right", and at worst you are saying "Antivaxers aren't human". Either way, you are putting too much trust in a system that claims to protect human rights, and totalitarians generally manage to find a way to twist the law to justify what they are doing, whether the excuse is "military necessity", "medical necessity", or something else.
- Pyramus 5y ago
  > the people who are forced to take the vaccination without their consent and in violation of their conscience. Your imagination got the better of you here - nobody will be forced to vaccinate, especially not without their consent. Similar to how nobody comes to your car and forces you to wear a seatbelt. Germany's constitution is quite clear about this, for apparent, historic reasons.
  - baggy_trough 5y ago
    You won't be physically forced to, but you also won't be allowed to do most of the things we normally consider that people have a right to do unless you comply. That's really a non physical way of forcing compliance (like saying I'll fire you from your job unless you agree).
  - daylp 5y ago
    So it will be "voluntary" by imposing successively higher fines until you cannot pay. Then your credit score will be ruined, you can't pay rent and join the homeless. Completely voluntary, just like compulsory state television fees. Incidentally, both state radio fees and mandatory vaccination were immensely popular in the Third Reich.
    - Xylakant 5y ago
      That’s an odd statement there. The mandatory vaccination against smallpox stems from the Kaiserreich (1874) and was loosened at the time of the Third Reich, to be reestablished after the 2nd world war, until it started phasing out in 1975. The state radio fees are a construct that was established after the Second World War, precisely because it was considered imperative to have a public radio/television that was not under government control.
  - ajsnigrutin 5y ago
    So, how is paying a fine (as in eg. greece) not a form of "force"? In one way, if you're rich, you can pay for your right not to wear a seatbelt.. i mean, get the vaccine, but for normal people, the current measures are basically them being forced to do something that they don't want to do.
    - drran 5y ago
      The fine is a punishment, not a force.
      - djbebs 5y ago
        Come now...
  - fartattack 5y ago
    The article says that Germany is planning to make the shot compulsory, literally this article that these comments are ostensibly discussing, in the second paragraph, so I'm not sure where you got the idea nobody is going to be forced to get vaccinated, but the gaslighting isn't appreciated
    - Xylakant 5y ago
      You won’t be forcefully vaccinated. But you can be fined for not taking the vaccine and you can be restricted in what jobs you work in. That’s how it works with the current limited vaccine mandate for measles.
      - stormking 5y ago
        And how is that not forcing?
        drran 5y ago
        Because this is not forcing?
        baggy_trough 5y ago
        When someone is "forced into early retirement" do you think that means that police dragged him away?
        drran 5y ago
        Yep, police or a guard can drag him away if he will show at work. He cannot pay a $100 fine or take a shot and continue to work like before. :-/
        baggy_trough 5y ago
        I don’t think you are aware of the definition of “to force”. It does not refer only to physical force.
- lsiebert 5y ago
  I think I'd rather some people be vaccinated without their consent with a safe vaccine than have some people be infected without their consent with a deadly illness. We know mask mandates, vaccines, and other medical interventions save lives, reduce transmission, reduce hospitalizations, reduce long term symptoms and long covid rates, and reduce deaths, and they may even reduce mutation rates. So the choice to vaccinate, that you paint as one of conscience and consent don't just affect the individual making the choice, but all the people around them.
  - ajsnigrutin 5y ago
    Why? I mean... we let people smoke and die due to that... why not due to covid too? The vaccines are too weak to actually achieve herd immunity, so pretty much everyone will get in contact with covid, sooner or later,... some will beat it by themselves and some will, sadly, die. If people want to take the risk of covid, why force them? I got vaccinated and I don't care if some people don't want to do it.
    - Xylakant 5y ago
      We no longer let people smoke in places where others are affected. If COVID would only affect the unvaccinated person, I’d agree with you. But vaccination reduces the risk of catching the disease and thus the risk of passing it on to others. If unvaccinated people would all stay home and enter voluntary lockdown, this wouldn’t be a discussion. But they do not. They get infected. They pass it on. In Berlin, there’s a recommendation to not engage in dangerous activities, because there might not be an ICU bed if you have an accident. Planned surgery for cancer patients is postponed, because there’s no bed for aftercare. They’re all taken by mostly unvaccinated COVID patients. If the unvaccinated would all voluntarily stay home and suffer there, I’d agree with you. But they don’t. They’re taking the bed that I’ll need if I get run over by a car in the street.
      - codr7 5y ago
        Vaccinated people get infected and pass it on too, what's your point here?
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- timdaub 5y ago
  It seems you're not understanding the German situation. But also: consider that your theoretical argument made out of anxiety for some imaginary totaliarism makes, in today's context, no sense: Triage is happening and people with better chances of survival (e.g. everyone vaccinated) are getting the beds. So already "antivaxers are treated less like humans".
- Xylakant 5y ago
  In fact, germany had a vaccine mandate against smallpox until 1975 https://de.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Impfpflicht https://de.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Impfpflicht and we have one against measles, though the mandate only requires children and people in certain fields of work to be vaccinated (teachers,caregivers etc.) The German constitutional court ruled in 1959 that the vaccine mandate against smallpox is constitutional.
- this_user 5y ago
  > If Germany's constitution allows vaccine mandates, then your insistence that it protects all human's rights will be of little comfort to the people who are forced to take the vaccination without their consent and in violation of their conscience. There is no rational reason not be be vaccinated. Anyone who refuses deliberately chooses to endanger themselves and everyone around them, and ultimately the majority is paying the price for the reckless behaviour of a minority in more than one way. Mandatory vaccinations are an instrument that has been used effectively and repeatedly throughout history. It has also held up in courts including in the US where SCOTUS has argued that individual liberty is not absolute and finds its limits where its exercise can harm the health and safety of others.
  - worik 5y ago
    It is not about rational debate or legal argument. Both are red herrings.
helge9210 5y ago
> You cannot know it, because it hasn't happened. I know of another case, when subset of citizens was labeled as cause of all evil with following mandatory medical procedures. It did happen in Germany long time ago and I don't want to believe it can happen again.
- klyrs 5y ago
  Then, the villain was Jews. Now, the villain is a virus. Incomparable.
cbozeman 5y ago
Given Germany's track record on human rights, you'll forgive me I don't believe you... or your government.
elvis10ten 5y ago
> Nobody knows if a vaccine mandate leaves people behind it tropes. You cannot know it, because it hasn't happened. An immigrant friend went homeless after Berlin required places like hotels & accommodation houses to be 2g (tested or recovered) only. He got his vaccine as he wasn’t against them in the first place, he was just a wreck less dumb person. I would argue that other measures would have been less catastrophic while still “punishing” the individual. Isn’t this an example of being left behind on a similar policy? If I misunderstood you, then my apologies.
prohobo 5y ago
So I could go to a doctor and ask for exemption on the grounds that I'm a young male and I'm most susceptible to getting Myocarditis from the shots? Or that I've already had Covid and there's good evidence that I don't need a shot? I don't think so.
- timdaub 5y ago
  I Germany you can go to a doctor and get an attest about practically anything. If you fail, just visit the next doctor.
  - isoskeles 5y ago
    Your argument appears to be that people should be forced to be vaxxed but with a bureaucracy that allows them to not get vaxxed (by visiting various doctors until one acquiesces) if they don’t want to. What am I misunderstanding here? And what then is the point of having a mandate, why support it?
- the_why_of_y 5y ago
  Myocarditis risk from Covid-19 is 4x higher than from BNT162b2 mRNA vaccine. https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa2110475 https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa2110475 Vaccination was most strongly associated with an elevated risk of myocarditis (risk ratio, 3.24; 95% confidence interval [CI], 1.55 to 12.44; risk difference, 2.7 events per 100,000 persons; 95% CI, 1.0 to 4.6) SARS-CoV-2 infection was associated with a substantially increased risk of myocarditis (risk ratio, 18.28; 95% CI, 3.95 to 25.12; risk difference, 11.0 events per 100,000 persons; 95% CI, 5.6 to 15.8)
  - MauranKilom 5y ago
    To be fair, rates are higher in certain age groups (particularly in the 20-30 age range). Here is the WHO advice from July: https://www.who.int/news/item/09-07-2021-gacvs-guidance-myocarditis-pericarditis-covid-19-mrna-vaccines https://www.who.int/news/item/09-07-2021-gacvs-guidance-myoc...
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
willnz 5y ago
> In Germany we have a constitution that protects all human's right equally. If there's good reasons why you can't receive a vaccination, I'm pretty sure nobody can force you. I've received lots of vaccinations in my lifetime, but I ask the question, who decides what the "good reason" is for vaccinating every eligible human? We know the Covid vaccines aren't 100% effective in stopping spread, or getting ill, but for the sake of argument, let's assume the vaccines are 100% safe and effective. The reason I don't think it should be mandated is because it sets a precedent for future mandates where the political climate may be different. Everyone should have the right to choose what happens to their body. Unfortunately that may mean people make stupid decisions (forgoing life-saving treatment, or possibly even making others sick), it's infuriating at times, but the alternative is far worse. The same argument applies to free speech and personal privacy. Taking away those rights, for what most would say is "obviously the right thing to do" may be all well and good in today's political climate. But it sets a precedent for the future, in which the political climate may be a lot different. Obviously, this is just my opinion :)

dane-pgp 5y ago

> In Germany we have a constitution that protects all human's right equally. If Germany's constitution allows vaccine mandates, then your insistence that it protects all human's rights will be of little comfort to the people who are forced to take the vaccination without their consent and in violation of their conscience. At best you are saying "Having control over what medical treatments are done to you is not a human right", and at worst you are saying "Antivaxers aren't human". Either way, you are putting too much trust in a system that claims to protect human rights, and totalitarians generally manage to find a way to twist the law to justify what they are doing, whether the excuse is "military necessity", "medical necessity", or something else.

Pyramus 5y ago
> the people who are forced to take the vaccination without their consent and in violation of their conscience. Your imagination got the better of you here - nobody will be forced to vaccinate, especially not without their consent. Similar to how nobody comes to your car and forces you to wear a seatbelt. Germany's constitution is quite clear about this, for apparent, historic reasons.
- baggy_trough 5y ago
  You won't be physically forced to, but you also won't be allowed to do most of the things we normally consider that people have a right to do unless you comply. That's really a non physical way of forcing compliance (like saying I'll fire you from your job unless you agree).
- daylp 5y ago
  So it will be "voluntary" by imposing successively higher fines until you cannot pay. Then your credit score will be ruined, you can't pay rent and join the homeless. Completely voluntary, just like compulsory state television fees. Incidentally, both state radio fees and mandatory vaccination were immensely popular in the Third Reich.
  - Xylakant 5y ago
    That’s an odd statement there. The mandatory vaccination against smallpox stems from the Kaiserreich (1874) and was loosened at the time of the Third Reich, to be reestablished after the 2nd world war, until it started phasing out in 1975. The state radio fees are a construct that was established after the Second World War, precisely because it was considered imperative to have a public radio/television that was not under government control.
- ajsnigrutin 5y ago
  So, how is paying a fine (as in eg. greece) not a form of "force"? In one way, if you're rich, you can pay for your right not to wear a seatbelt.. i mean, get the vaccine, but for normal people, the current measures are basically them being forced to do something that they don't want to do.
  - drran 5y ago
    The fine is a punishment, not a force.
    - djbebs 5y ago
      Come now...
- fartattack 5y ago
  The article says that Germany is planning to make the shot compulsory, literally this article that these comments are ostensibly discussing, in the second paragraph, so I'm not sure where you got the idea nobody is going to be forced to get vaccinated, but the gaslighting isn't appreciated
  - Xylakant 5y ago
    You won’t be forcefully vaccinated. But you can be fined for not taking the vaccine and you can be restricted in what jobs you work in. That’s how it works with the current limited vaccine mandate for measles.
    - stormking 5y ago
      And how is that not forcing?
      - drran 5y ago
        Because this is not forcing?
        baggy_trough 5y ago
        When someone is "forced into early retirement" do you think that means that police dragged him away?
        drran 5y ago
        Yep, police or a guard can drag him away if he will show at work. He cannot pay a $100 fine or take a shot and continue to work like before. :-/
        baggy_trough 5y ago
        I don’t think you are aware of the definition of “to force”. It does not refer only to physical force.
lsiebert 5y ago
I think I'd rather some people be vaccinated without their consent with a safe vaccine than have some people be infected without their consent with a deadly illness. We know mask mandates, vaccines, and other medical interventions save lives, reduce transmission, reduce hospitalizations, reduce long term symptoms and long covid rates, and reduce deaths, and they may even reduce mutation rates. So the choice to vaccinate, that you paint as one of conscience and consent don't just affect the individual making the choice, but all the people around them.
- ajsnigrutin 5y ago
  Why? I mean... we let people smoke and die due to that... why not due to covid too? The vaccines are too weak to actually achieve herd immunity, so pretty much everyone will get in contact with covid, sooner or later,... some will beat it by themselves and some will, sadly, die. If people want to take the risk of covid, why force them? I got vaccinated and I don't care if some people don't want to do it.
  - Xylakant 5y ago
    We no longer let people smoke in places where others are affected. If COVID would only affect the unvaccinated person, I’d agree with you. But vaccination reduces the risk of catching the disease and thus the risk of passing it on to others. If unvaccinated people would all stay home and enter voluntary lockdown, this wouldn’t be a discussion. But they do not. They get infected. They pass it on. In Berlin, there’s a recommendation to not engage in dangerous activities, because there might not be an ICU bed if you have an accident. Planned surgery for cancer patients is postponed, because there’s no bed for aftercare. They’re all taken by mostly unvaccinated COVID patients. If the unvaccinated would all voluntarily stay home and suffer there, I’d agree with you. But they don’t. They’re taking the bed that I’ll need if I get run over by a car in the street.
    - codr7 5y ago
      Vaccinated people get infected and pass it on too, what's your point here?
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
timdaub 5y ago
It seems you're not understanding the German situation. But also: consider that your theoretical argument made out of anxiety for some imaginary totaliarism makes, in today's context, no sense: Triage is happening and people with better chances of survival (e.g. everyone vaccinated) are getting the beds. So already "antivaxers are treated less like humans".
Xylakant 5y ago
In fact, germany had a vaccine mandate against smallpox until 1975 https://de.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Impfpflicht https://de.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Impfpflicht and we have one against measles, though the mandate only requires children and people in certain fields of work to be vaccinated (teachers,caregivers etc.) The German constitutional court ruled in 1959 that the vaccine mandate against smallpox is constitutional.
this_user 5y ago
> If Germany's constitution allows vaccine mandates, then your insistence that it protects all human's rights will be of little comfort to the people who are forced to take the vaccination without their consent and in violation of their conscience. There is no rational reason not be be vaccinated. Anyone who refuses deliberately chooses to endanger themselves and everyone around them, and ultimately the majority is paying the price for the reckless behaviour of a minority in more than one way. Mandatory vaccinations are an instrument that has been used effectively and repeatedly throughout history. It has also held up in courts including in the US where SCOTUS has argued that individual liberty is not absolute and finds its limits where its exercise can harm the health and safety of others.
- worik 5y ago
  It is not about rational debate or legal argument. Both are red herrings.

helge9210 5y ago

> You cannot know it, because it hasn't happened. I know of another case, when subset of citizens was labeled as cause of all evil with following mandatory medical procedures. It did happen in Germany long time ago and I don't want to believe it can happen again.

klyrs 5y ago
Then, the villain was Jews. Now, the villain is a virus. Incomparable.

cbozeman 5y ago

Given Germany's track record on human rights, you'll forgive me I don't believe you... or your government.

elvis10ten 5y ago

> Nobody knows if a vaccine mandate leaves people behind it tropes. You cannot know it, because it hasn't happened. An immigrant friend went homeless after Berlin required places like hotels & accommodation houses to be 2g (tested or recovered) only. He got his vaccine as he wasn’t against them in the first place, he was just a wreck less dumb person. I would argue that other measures would have been less catastrophic while still “punishing” the individual. Isn’t this an example of being left behind on a similar policy? If I misunderstood you, then my apologies.

prohobo 5y ago

So I could go to a doctor and ask for exemption on the grounds that I'm a young male and I'm most susceptible to getting Myocarditis from the shots? Or that I've already had Covid and there's good evidence that I don't need a shot? I don't think so.

timdaub 5y ago
I Germany you can go to a doctor and get an attest about practically anything. If you fail, just visit the next doctor.
- isoskeles 5y ago
  Your argument appears to be that people should be forced to be vaxxed but with a bureaucracy that allows them to not get vaxxed (by visiting various doctors until one acquiesces) if they don’t want to. What am I misunderstanding here? And what then is the point of having a mandate, why support it?
the_why_of_y 5y ago
Myocarditis risk from Covid-19 is 4x higher than from BNT162b2 mRNA vaccine. https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa2110475 https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa2110475 Vaccination was most strongly associated with an elevated risk of myocarditis (risk ratio, 3.24; 95% confidence interval [CI], 1.55 to 12.44; risk difference, 2.7 events per 100,000 persons; 95% CI, 1.0 to 4.6) SARS-CoV-2 infection was associated with a substantially increased risk of myocarditis (risk ratio, 18.28; 95% CI, 3.95 to 25.12; risk difference, 11.0 events per 100,000 persons; 95% CI, 5.6 to 15.8)
- MauranKilom 5y ago
  To be fair, rates are higher in certain age groups (particularly in the 20-30 age range). Here is the WHO advice from July: https://www.who.int/news/item/09-07-2021-gacvs-guidance-myocarditis-pericarditis-covid-19-mrna-vaccines https://www.who.int/news/item/09-07-2021-gacvs-guidance-myoc...

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

willnz 5y ago

> In Germany we have a constitution that protects all human's right equally. If there's good reasons why you can't receive a vaccination, I'm pretty sure nobody can force you. I've received lots of vaccinations in my lifetime, but I ask the question, who decides what the "good reason" is for vaccinating every eligible human? We know the Covid vaccines aren't 100% effective in stopping spread, or getting ill, but for the sake of argument, let's assume the vaccines are 100% safe and effective. The reason I don't think it should be mandated is because it sets a precedent for future mandates where the political climate may be different. Everyone should have the right to choose what happens to their body. Unfortunately that may mean people make stupid decisions (forgoing life-saving treatment, or possibly even making others sick), it's infuriating at times, but the alternative is far worse. The same argument applies to free speech and personal privacy. Taking away those rights, for what most would say is "obviously the right thing to do" may be all well and good in today's political climate. But it sets a precedent for the future, in which the political climate may be a lot different. Obviously, this is just my opinion :)