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You cannot make this virus extinct. These vaccines do not accomplish this goal, the end.
by prohobo 5y ago
You cannot make this virus extinct. These vaccines do not accomplish this goal, the end.
- Swenrekcah 5y agoThe goal is to keep serious cases to a minimum so they don’t clog the healthcare system thus making people die of all sorts of other things because they couldn’t be treated. Vaccines do help with that, tremendously.
- prohobo 5y agoDo they? Can you prove that, or are you just saying random shit everyone else says? This was not the narrative at the beginning of the vaccine rollout, by the way. The narrative changed every month towards what you're currently saying. From what I've heard, thousands of people have been losing out on proper healthcare because of governments blocking their access; I'm talking people who should have had cancer screenings not getting them and dying because they were coerced into "lowering the strain on healthcare services". I also heard that thousands of healthcare workers have been getting fired, and ICU beds removed because of governments deciding they weren't heroic enough, and not fit for treating patients. Who are you trying to protect exactly?
- Swenrekcah 5y agoYou can look up all the statistics on vaccine effectiveness against serious cases. They work really well for that. They don’t work as well as first hoped against infection but data on third booster suggests better results on that front. Look it up instead of asking me for proof, while you yourself are restating hearsay originating from who knows where.
- prohobo 5y agoI asked if you can prove that they stop hospitals from being overwhelmed, not whether they were effective. So far it's not looking very good, is that why you support the decision to mandate the shots?
- Swenrekcah 5y agoI'm not sure I support a vaccine mandate. I'm just saying that the vaccines work and it's foolish to claim otherwise. I can understand hesitation to get vaccinated, but I'd like to ask those same people if they take any other medicine at all and if they have read the pamphlet that comes with those. Also I'd like to ask if they are fine with getting a completely alien and known harmful substance into their body, the substance we call Coronavirus.
- MarcoZavala 5y ago
- TurkishPoptart 5y agoSure, yet since when do I have to undergo an irreversible medical procedure for the sake of the government healthcare infrastructure?
- Swenrekcah 5y agoI'll start by saying I haven't been a supporter of vaccine mandates. It's best if people can make this up for themselves. Given the right information it's not really a hard choice. And of course there can be personal reasons why it'd be wise to not get vaccinated, but those are rare. The procedure is benign. Describing it as irreversible is technically true but practically it's scaremongering. And it's for the sake of the people around you. Your society. So they don't die waiting for their healthcare services to unclog. Edit: And it's also obviously for the sake of the person getting vaccinated, let's not forget that :)
- TurkishPoptart 5y agoBecause, sadly, we know that's not true anymore. >...fully vaccinated individuals with breakthrough infections have peak viral load similar to unvaccinated cases and can efficiently transmit infection in household settings, including to fully vaccinated contacts. Host–virus interactions early in infection may shape the entire viral trajectory. Source: https://www.thelancet.com/journals/laninf/article/PIIS1473-3099(21)00648-4/fulltext https://www.thelancet.com/journals/laninf/article/PIIS1473-3...
- Swenrekcah 5y agoYes I know, it was clear early on. The study also says: >Although vaccines remain highly effective at preventing severe disease and deaths from COVID-19, our findings suggest that vaccination is not sufficient to prevent transmission of the delta variant in household settings with prolonged exposures. Which is what we're talking about here, preventing serious cases.
- chki 5y agoSince we have a global pandemic. This is a completely novel and unusual situation, why wouldn't you think that the solutions will be novel and unusual as well?
- codr7 5y agoSource? From listening to nurses and doctors, I get the impression that most people in hospitals with Covid-issues lately are vaccinated; and I trust real people with real experiences over authorities with agendas.
- usr1106 5y ago> I get the impression that most people in hospitals with Covid-issues lately are vaccinated I read some statistics over that the other day. It is correct when looking only at hospital patients. The explanation is that most who need hospital care come from a risk group. And risk groups are fully vaccinated by over 90% (here). So you end up with high absolute numbers of vaccinated hospital patients. If you look at a somewhat comparable group of people, chances to need hospital care are manyfold for the unvaccinated. It's true for higher risk groups and for lower risk groups. Vaccinations are not perfect protection against anything, but they reduce risk by a high factor.
- codr7 5y agoWasn't filling up hospitals the problem we were trying to solve by vaccinating people in the first place? Isn't that the excuse people use to harass anyone who doesn't feel like being experimented on for profit?
- klipklop 5y ago>The goal is to keep serious cases to a minimum so they don’t clog the healthcare system... Reminds me of 2 weeks to flatten the curve. Yet here we are. Why all the sudden are we at risk of clogging the healthcare system with some areas hitting 70%+ adult vaccination rates? Germany already has given out 124,401,062 doses of the vaccine. All I ever see is the goalposts being moved with this stuff. I have taken the vaccine, but I am hesitant about mandates and vaccine passports.
- kelnos 5y agoI find it exhausting that people such as yourself seem to latch onto missed time frames as a reason to just assume all public health policy is bullshit. Yes, because when I say I'm going to finish some software project in 2 weeks, I absolutely always get it done in 2 weeks. These are estimates. They are sometimes (often!) wrong. Sometimes they're wrong because the problem was underestimated. Sometimes they are wrong for political reasons. Yes, "flattening the curve" took more than 2 weeks. Big deal. Doing so did absolutely reduce pressure on ICUs and saved many lives. And hell, if everyone had actually followed all the mandates and guidelines at the time, maybe it would have only taken two weeks. But people don't, and it's always hard to gauge how many people will refuse to cooperate, and in what ways, and exactly what effect that will have. The reason the goalposts are moving is because this isn't a well-defined game with strictly-set rules. The virus doesn't care about our rules or projections. If it mutates, and the new variant does better against our vaccines, then... yes, the goalposts will move. Our utter failure to get high vaccination rates in poorer countries is likely a big cause of the new variants. It's all well and good to be sitting in a highly-vaccinated city in the first world, but all it takes is one person to fly in from somewhere with a new variant, and you're hosed.
- poszlem 5y agoYou miss a time frame if you say "2 weeks" and end up having to lockdown for 3 instead. If you say "2 weeks" and end up with lockdowns for years you are either incompetent or lying or both.
- 5y ago
- mattzito 5y agoSure, but we can make the virus largely irrelevant in terms of its impact on peoples lives. We can reduce the number of people who suffer long term consequences, the number of deaths, and the load on hospitals. We can make it harder for new, more dangerous, variants to arise.
- runarberg 5y agoI do think it is important to use the correct terminology here. This disease and the vaccines are already a huge spread of misinformation, so lets expand on the “sure” bit from this sentence a little. It is saying quite a lot: I don’t think any expert nor any public health department is working with the goal of eradication in mind. So we should acknowledge the fact that these vaccines will probably not eradicate COVID. We will have people getting sick from COVID and we will have more COVID variants for the foreseeable future. Even after most people have been thoroughly vaccinated. And given the slow global spread of vaccines we will also probably see more lockdown measures to slow the spread of the virus beyond the current vaccine capabilities. Now that said, remember that with the vaccines: > we can make the virus largely irrelevant in terms of its impact on peoples lives. We can reduce the number of people who suffer long term consequences, the number of deaths, and the load on hospitals. We can make it harder for new, more dangerous, variants to arise.
- VoodooJuJu 5y ago>I don’t think any expert nor any public health department is working with the goal of eradication in mind I believe I speak for many when I say, "I have no idea what the experts' have in mind" (and that's not a good thing). So they're trying hard to get everyone vaccinated - a noble goal, perhaps, as our current roster of vaccines diminish symptoms and greatly reduce hospitalization and fatality rates. But..."Stop the spread, get vaccinated"...what? Like the parent said, all of the currently-approved intramuscular Covid-19 vaccines have proven to have a negligible effect on transmission rate. Early on, experts probably made an educated guess or wish that these vaccines would be sterilizing and started information campaigns on this premise. When this turned out to be not true, their "Stop the spread, get vaccinated" became "You unvaccinated are the problem, you are holding us back, and you will be locked down immediately". Rather than address their mistake, rather than open up transparently, they doubled down on the lie. Not a good way to build trust.
- throwoutway 5y agoThank you! It’s this myth that keeps perpetuating that makes people think mandates are acceptable. And I say that as someone vaccinated.
- joshuamorton 5y agoI have literally only seen people opposed to vaccine mandates bring this up. It's a fake talking point to paint people in favor of mandates as misinformed.
- throwoutway 5y agoYou're saying that a handful of your anecdotes are a perpetual fake talking point? I have seen the exact opposite. People are generally misinformed. In case you need a counterpoint to your anecdotes, read the upthread: > I agree that everybody should get vaccinated. Let's make this virus extinct.
- joshuamorton 5y agoThe person you're quoting was arguing against a vaccine mandate!
- crooked-v 5y agoHowever, they do accomplish the goal of stopping it from being a pandemic. With enough people vaccinated to reduce the R-value below 1, reinfections from animal reservoirs will become inherently self-limiting.
- pjc50 5y agoWhy not? We eradicated smallpox.
- gjs278 5y agobecause that vaccine actually works. this one has “breakthrough” cases
- prohobo 5y agoAre you serious? Let me ask you why we haven't eradicated influenza? Not all viruses are the same, and neither are all vaccines.
- whiddershins 5y agoThe smallpox vaccine is a sterilizing vaccine, meaning you cannot be infected and cannot transmit it once you are vaccinated. The MRNAs are non-sterilizing, as are many vaccines. They may reduce symptoms, reduce infections, and reduce transmission, but they are not considered a sterilizing vaccine. Secondly, coronaviruses mutate much faster than smallpox, and have other hard to deal with stuff like asymptomatic transmission. The only diseases we ever eradicated were polio and smallpox. I think we got rid of the guinea worm too. Out of all the many many diseases we have fought over the years.
- glogla 5y ago> The MRNAs are non-sterilizing The vaccines we have are non-sterilizing - and my understanding is that the reason is mostly because we needed at least something very quickly and sterilizing vaccines for respiratory virus are harder to research. It is not inherent property of the technology as far as I know. Sterilizing vaccines for COVID seem to be theoretically possible. "Natural" infection generates stronger immune response on mucus membranes as well as deep inside the body and that provides higher protection against infection. There's no reason why that wouldn't be possible to replicate using a vaccine. But nobody succeeded at making one yet, so we'll have to see if it's practical.
- anonAndOn 5y agoThanks to some Af-Pak mullahs, the world still has polio in the wild. [0] [0]https://www.gatesfoundation.org/our-work/programs/global-development/polio https://www.gatesfoundation.org/our-work/programs/global-dev...
- jermaustin1 5y agoYes the vaccine doesn't kill it, but what would kill it is a REAL lock down. Give everyone 2 months of salary, and 2 months of food. Nationalize food production for a month, give everyone shelf stable terrible food, the same crap that the majority of the anti-vaxxers have been hoarding for decades. Its like a pretend apocalypse. They should LOVE it.
- Syonyk 5y agoHow do you keep things like "power plants" and "water systems" running in this proposal? Either you allow so many exceptions that it's worthless, or you literally shut down modern civilization. It's far from clear that it can be blackstarted.
- systemvoltage 5y agoOne leak in the population of 7 billion and the whole plan is a waste.
- crooked-v 5y agoUnfortunately, that wouldn't really help long term, because the disease has spread through animal populations by now. The only way to reliably stop this from being an ongoing pandemic is measures that reduce the R-value below 1 in a long-term manner, like mass vaccinations.