5 ms·

There was a paper recently circulating the media which shows the immense amount of "esoteric" people in German speaking countries. Those people are responsible

There was a paper recently circulating the media which shows the immense amount of "esoteric" people in German speaking countries. Those people are responsible for the staggering vaccination numbers and spreading of conspiracy myths around this crisis. It's so prevalent, I can't remember anyone who at least once spread some unscientific bullshit in the last 2 years here. The handling of those people in the media and the way their opinions are presented equally with scientific facts result in this reluctance politicians displayed in this crisis. Now we all have to suffer because of it. I hope we finally mandatory vaccinations...it's overdue.

TulliusCicero 5y ago
By esoteric you mean pseudoscience believers, homeopaths and the like? Recently moved back from Germany after five years there, homeopathy depressingly common and accepted there, even by many medical professionals.
- Krasnol 5y ago
  Yes this is what I meant. We still have homeopathic pills and "treatments" which are being paid by the health insurance. Something which goes back to some politicians wife who believed in it and was able to influence the political process. The huge Steiner tradition in here is catastrophic. We just recently had COVID running wild in a Waldorf school. Turns out, faked vaccination certificates were very popular... It's quite embarrassing and it's actually the first time the side effects of this madness come up in public discourse.
native_samples 5y ago
The problem with this claim is that vaccine fanatics spread vast amounts of misinformation themselves, and often rely on it for their core arguments. Just in this thread alone, we can find people saying: 1. Vaccines would let us wipe out COVID (wrong). 2. Even harsher lockdowns would let us wipe out COVID (wrong). 3. Vaccines stop people transmitting it (wrong). 4. Vaccinated people don't end up in ICU with COVID (wrong). 5. Sweden had unusually bad outcomes (wrong). 6. That it's "very normal" for people to take yearly flu shots (wrong, only ~35% uptake amongst at risk patients in 2019). And that's not even a full list. There's not only a large set of factually incorrect beliefs amongst vaccine mandate fanatics (and that's the only word for you guys now), but also a generalized incorrect belief that it's the other side who are badly informed.
- switch007 5y ago
  Excellent list!
- Krasnol 5y ago
  I fail to see your point. On the other side we have anti-vaxxers here too. Who's more harmful? While most of those points you made here are just overblown generalisations (and probably not even stated in this fashion), none of them are completely wrong. On the anti-vaxxer side we have claims which are not only completely wrong, people literally die because they or others around them believe in them. So again: what's your point?
  - EricE 5y ago
    If you are vaccinated how is an unvaccinated person a threat to you? Seriously - how?
    - deleted 5y ago
      [deleted]
    - SamTwardowski 5y ago
      Spiritually, you represent threat. I am holy and those around me must be holy as well.
    - m4rtink 5y ago
      By causing hospitals to be overloaded so I or people close to me can't be treated in an emergency? Not to mention all the hospital personnel having one more wave of hell to endure. By giving, possibly repeatedly so much viral lead to old people I know that they might end up in a hospital even when fully vaccinated? By being essentially a petri dish for creating new harmful variants?
      - disambiguation 5y ago
        The only potentially valid point here is hospital overload. Everything else you listed applies to the vaccinated as well. Let's start by agreeing that hospital overload is definitely a bad thing. Vaccination should help reduce the load, but has anything else been done? Hasn't staff in hospitals decreased over the course of the pandemic? Aren't we funneling tons of money to pharma instead of Frontline workers? What about setting up field hospitals? What about altering the priority access to emergency health care of the unvaccinated? Hospital overload has been a liminal crisis for the past 2 years, but has yet to materialize as a real issue. Have we just been getting lucky? narrowly avoiding disaster each wave? Because this is almost starting to look like a boogeyman that pops up on a regular basis that reminds us that we need to live in fear.

TulliusCicero 5y ago

By esoteric you mean pseudoscience believers, homeopaths and the like? Recently moved back from Germany after five years there, homeopathy depressingly common and accepted there, even by many medical professionals.

Krasnol 5y ago
Yes this is what I meant. We still have homeopathic pills and "treatments" which are being paid by the health insurance. Something which goes back to some politicians wife who believed in it and was able to influence the political process. The huge Steiner tradition in here is catastrophic. We just recently had COVID running wild in a Waldorf school. Turns out, faked vaccination certificates were very popular... It's quite embarrassing and it's actually the first time the side effects of this madness come up in public discourse.

native_samples 5y ago

The problem with this claim is that vaccine fanatics spread vast amounts of misinformation themselves, and often rely on it for their core arguments. Just in this thread alone, we can find people saying: 1. Vaccines would let us wipe out COVID (wrong). 2. Even harsher lockdowns would let us wipe out COVID (wrong). 3. Vaccines stop people transmitting it (wrong). 4. Vaccinated people don't end up in ICU with COVID (wrong). 5. Sweden had unusually bad outcomes (wrong). 6. That it's "very normal" for people to take yearly flu shots (wrong, only ~35% uptake amongst at risk patients in 2019). And that's not even a full list. There's not only a large set of factually incorrect beliefs amongst vaccine mandate fanatics (and that's the only word for you guys now), but also a generalized incorrect belief that it's the other side who are badly informed.

switch007 5y ago
Excellent list!
Krasnol 5y ago
I fail to see your point. On the other side we have anti-vaxxers here too. Who's more harmful? While most of those points you made here are just overblown generalisations (and probably not even stated in this fashion), none of them are completely wrong. On the anti-vaxxer side we have claims which are not only completely wrong, people literally die because they or others around them believe in them. So again: what's your point?
- EricE 5y ago
  If you are vaccinated how is an unvaccinated person a threat to you? Seriously - how?
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
  - SamTwardowski 5y ago
    Spiritually, you represent threat. I am holy and those around me must be holy as well.
  - m4rtink 5y ago
    By causing hospitals to be overloaded so I or people close to me can't be treated in an emergency? Not to mention all the hospital personnel having one more wave of hell to endure. By giving, possibly repeatedly so much viral lead to old people I know that they might end up in a hospital even when fully vaccinated? By being essentially a petri dish for creating new harmful variants?
    - disambiguation 5y ago
      The only potentially valid point here is hospital overload. Everything else you listed applies to the vaccinated as well. Let's start by agreeing that hospital overload is definitely a bad thing. Vaccination should help reduce the load, but has anything else been done? Hasn't staff in hospitals decreased over the course of the pandemic? Aren't we funneling tons of money to pharma instead of Frontline workers? What about setting up field hospitals? What about altering the priority access to emergency health care of the unvaccinated? Hospital overload has been a liminal crisis for the past 2 years, but has yet to materialize as a real issue. Have we just been getting lucky? narrowly avoiding disaster each wave? Because this is almost starting to look like a boogeyman that pops up on a regular basis that reminds us that we need to live in fear.