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In Denmark we have now reached 90% vaccination rate. We have more infected, the same number of admissions in hospital and a 15% higher death rate than all of 20
by lbj 5y ago
In Denmark we have now reached 90% vaccination rate. We have more infected, the same number of admissions in hospital and a 15% higher death rate than all of 2020. I really fail to see why we are blaming the unvaccinated and not Pfizer/Moderna.
- joshuamorton 5y agoAre hospital admissions and mortality rates similar among vaccinated and nonvaccinated individuals?
- berkes 5y agoNo. Not at all. .dk is similar to .nl in this, and in .nl its 55/45 unvaccinated/vaccinated (on a 12/88 ratio of vaccinations).
- liversage 5y agoThere is a dashboard (in Danish) with current numbers: https://experience.arcgis.com/experience/aa41b29149f24e20a4007a0c4e13db1d/page/page_5/ https://experience.arcgis.com/experience/aa41b29149f24e20a40... The number of hospitalized patients per 100K are as follows: Unvaccinated: 24.7 Started vaccination: 10.5 Fully vaccinated: 5.9
- throwntoday 5y agoNo you don't understand, the unvaccinated are the reason the vaccinated are getting the virus /s
- more_corn 5y agoThis is simply not true. Don’t get me wrong. I fully support everyone getting vaccinated, and requiring it broadly. But your statement is just not true. Omicron is thought to have evolved in an immunocompromised person. Vaccinating that person would not have helped. COVID-19 is also known to cross easily between humans and other animals. An alternate theory is that the startling number of mutations in the Omicron variant evolved in an animal host. This variant appears to defeat previous immunity both from prior infection and vaccination. The willfully unvaccinated, while idiots and selfish assholes are not to blame in our current troubles and vaccinating every person on earth would not have prevented the Omicron outbreak. Furthermore we need to take a global view. Just because we have sufficient doses to fully vaccine everyone in Europe we’re not protected unless everyone everywhere gets vaccinated. (And even then pockets of virus can mutate and overcome the vaccine) I’ll worry more about idiot Texans (who are frankly mostly hurting themselves and their families) when we provide enough doses to Bangladesh to vaccinate their whole population. (And rinse and repeat for every developing nation)
- krater23 5y agoWhy you think this? People that are unvaccinated will have harder covid symptoms that are earlier found and in best case quarantined. With a cold maybee without the knowledge about covid they just stay in the bed for some days. Vaccinated people are more the ones with no symptoms and run everyday through the city and infect other people without knowing that they do it. So I think that what you say is just not correct.
- CountDrewku 5y agoThe /s means they're being sarcastic.
- bocytron 5y agoSources please?
- timdaub 5y agothe 90% vaccination claims of the op are false.
- koonsolo 5y agoProbably vaccination rate for adults, not everybody.
- liversage 5y agoThe 90% figure has sometimes been quoted in Denmark but it doesn't include people not eligible for vaccination. Now that smaller kids are offered the vaccine this ratio has decreased and really shouldn't be used at all. The percentage of people in Denmark that have started vaccinations of the total population is 78% with 76% having completed their vaccinations.
- kareemm 5y agoWhat is the breakdown of unvaxxed/vaxxed in hospital admissions and deaths? Serious question. I wonder about vaxx effectiveness when I see these numbers. But the breakdown matters. I live in Nova Scotia, Canada. Our breakdown from Mar 15-Nov 26 is[1]: - Hospitalizations: 84.4% unvaxxed, 9.6% 1 shot, 6% 2 shots - Deaths: 69% unvaxxed, 7.1% 1 shot, 23.8% 2 shots Total admissions and death rate numbers don't tell the whole story - breaking them down by vaxxed/1shot/2shot will help unpack "who to blame". In fact, you can dig deeper. My province doesn't release the numbers but from what I can tell the 2-shot people who die are generally older and/or infirm. So I believe the 2shot numbers are being thrown off by an atypical population... which means the general population has less to fear from covid if they're double vaxxed. My co-founder informed this is an example of "Simpson's Paradox"[2]. What kind of vaxxed/unvaxxed breakdown are you seeing in Denmark? 1 - https://experience.arcgis.com/experience/204d6ed723244dfbb763ca3f913c5cad https://experience.arcgis.com/experience/204d6ed723244dfbb76... 2 - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simpson%27s_paradox https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simpson%27s_paradox
- chrishynes 5y agoThe other thing that doesn't show the whole story is using a data set starting in March when there was a quite low percent vaccinated but comparing totals of unvaxxed vs. vaxxed deaths over the whole period, when fully vaxxed in March was only a few percent. It'd be much more interesting to see a straight comparison over Oct-Nov, say, when the vaccination rate was stable and get the unvaxxed vs 1 shot vs 2 shot vs 2 weeks after 2nd shot vs booster numbers.
- ImaCake 5y agoThis is exactly simpsons paradox. It is a shame so few people have heard of it! This same breakdown implies that vaccinating half of the currently unvaxxed would do a lot to reduce pressure on hospitals. That is, if you have 80% vaxxed, a mere 10% increase could halve the number of hospital beds needed. No wonder governments are going so hard on vaccinating the hesitant and antivax.
- makomk 5y agoNo, this does not imply that going from 80% to 90% vaccinated could halve the number of hospital beds needed - that reasoning would only work if the vaccine completely prevented Covid-related hospitalizations, in which case zero vaccinated people would be hospitalized and Simpson's paradox wouldn't apply. What it actually implies is that at much less than 100% vaccination, you hit a point where vaccinating the remaining population does very little to reduce pressure on hospitals because most people who're hospitalized have been vaccinated, despite the fact that the vaccines do reduce the risk of hospitalization. That is, the benefits of vaccinating the last few percent of the population actually diminish rather than increasing like they would do with a more effective vaccine.
- berkes 5y ago10% of 5,821,297 is still 58,212 people who potentially get ill (and can die and can get into hospital). I'm not sure where you get the 15% higher death rate: any sources? In .nl we are seeing the same numbers (but on a 3x population of denmarks). Hospitals are so full now, they are rejecting e.g. cancer-patients and other "plannable Intensive Care patients". Over half of the patients on those ICs are vaccinated; ergo, from a ratio of 10/90% the patients are 55/45%; ergo: they work. Certainly not fully and certainly less than (I) expected.
- marcusverus 5y agoI think he's confused about the data. Based on the Google data (from the graph that's visible when searching "COVID Denmark"), there are more Danish cases now than at the previous 2020 peak (3500/day then vs 4300 now), BUT hospitalizations (920/day then vs 430 now) and deaths (32/day then vs. 11 now) are down significantly.
- thinkindie 5y agobtw - 10% of 5,821,297 is 582k. Therefore even higher number of people that could potentially end up in hospital, ICU or dead.
- rbanffy 5y agoIs the death rate as high among the unvaccinated or is it just that the unvaccinated die 15% more frequently than before? > I really fail to see why we are blaming the unvaccinated and not Pfizer/Moderna. I’d blame both the unvaccinated and new variants that seem to be more lethal than before. If it is the case that vaccinated are still passing the virus but not dying from it, then isolation of the unvaccinated saves their lives.
- wiredearp 5y agoThat's because two out of three that get hospitalized are unvaccinated, or that's at least the case in Odense.
- angelzen 5y agoThe vaccines, while not as effective as classics like polio vaccine or measles vaccine, are definitely a net positive and help significantly in reducing the epidemic burden. Perhaps instead of internecine finger pointing we could blame covid itself?
- _moof 5y agoI can't find any data to support your claim of a higher death rate in Denmark than all of 2020. The data I have show: - Denmark currently experiencing a massive new wave of infections - Previous large wave of infections was last winter, with rate peaking on Dec 18 - Daily deaths peaked one month later at about 8 per 1000 daily infections - Current daily deaths, accounting for lag, is also about 8 per 1000 daily infections https://graphics.reuters.com/world-coronavirus-tracker-and-maps/countries-and-territories/denmark/ https://graphics.reuters.com/world-coronavirus-tracker-and-m...
- cheeze 5y agoYeah, but this is HackerNews. The antivax crowd is strong here. Brandolini's law in full effect in this comment.
- vorpalhex 5y agoPlease actually post arguments and not just dismissals. Nobody in this conversation is anti-vaxx, but this fantasy of "If we vaccinate X more, covid will not be a problem" simply does not align with reality. The vaccines are effective, but they are not flawless, and we are dealing with a very high R0 disease that is changing.
- somewhereoutth 5y agoExcept that the problem is exactly the unvaxxed. When we have 100% coverage of all age groups, with boosters as necessary (let's hope for continuing good data from Israel), then we can suppress Covid. Vaccination is something that everyone has to do for the sake of everyone, which sadly is a somewhat alien concept in certain parts of our society.
- vorpalhex 5y agoWhen we have 100% coverage of all age groups.. we will still have covid hospitalizations. We will still have covid spread. We may still even sometimes need to wear masks and have lockdowns. You should still get vaccinated and get boosters, but no vaccination rate is going to make this go away anymore than the flu shot has eliminated the flu.
- jltsiren 5y agoThe vaccination rate in Denmark is less than 80%. The virus does not care that vaccines have not been authorized for kids yet. An unvaccinated person is an unvaccinated person, regardless of whether the reason is bureaucracy or personal choice. Also, the effective vaccination rate is usually lower than the average rate. Unvaccinated people tend to spend time with other unvaccinated people, and this is particularly true for kids. The people an infected individual encounters are more likely to be unvaccinated than the general population.
- cmrdporcupine 5y agoWhat people aren't typically "mathing" right is that even if you have 90% vaccinated, that's still potentially hundreds of thousands (millions in bigger countries) of un-vaccinated people who are prone to getting seriously sick. The numbers here in Ontario are clear. Case rates among the unvaccinated are far higher, and ICU admissions are far far far higher. I never fell for any line that said vaccination would just make the disease go away. Frankly that was never said by medical experts, only implied by certain politicians.
- timdaub 5y agoDenmark has 76,4% vaccinated: check on https://www.zeit.de/index https://www.zeit.de/index
- cmrdporcupine 5y agoThanks, something really didn't smell right there.
- t0mas88 5y agoOne is the rate in the total population, the other is the vaccination rate for the 18+ part of the population. The numbers in the Netherlands are similar but both a bit lower.
- cmrdporcupine 5y agoWow both those numbers are lower than here in Canada.
- timdaub 5y agoDenmark has 76,4% completely vaccinated. Source, the data on https://www.zeit.de https://www.zeit.de
- uptownfunk 5y agoIncredible statistic, would love to see the source on this
- fsh 5y agoNone of this is true. The vaccination rate in Denmark is 77%, not 90% [1]. The number of hospital admissions and the death rate are lower than during the first and second waves [2, 3] despite a significantly larger infection rate [4]. [1] https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/share-people-fully-vaccinated-covid?country=DNK https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/share-people-fully-vaccin... [2] https://ourworldindata.org/explorers/coronavirus-data-explorer?country=~DNK&Metric=Hospital+admissions https://ourworldindata.org/explorers/coronavirus-data-explor... [3] https://ourworldindata.org/explorers/coronavirus-data-explorer?country=~DNK&Metric=Confirmed+deaths https://ourworldindata.org/explorers/coronavirus-data-explor... [4] https://ourworldindata.org/explorers/coronavirus-data-explorer?country=~DNK&Metric=Confirmed+cases https://ourworldindata.org/explorers/coronavirus-data-explor...
- koonsolo 5y agoProbably the difference between vaccination rate in adults, and vaccination rate over the whole population?
- akira2501 5y agoOn 1: The discrepancy in percentages is usually the difference between "Entire Population Vaccinated" and "Eligible Population Vaccinated." Which, until very recently, was only people 12 and older. Given the exceptionally low incidence of death in the 12 and under group, it's debatable which figure should be given prominence. On 2 and 3: The case rate is spiking significantly higher than it has ever before, and the death rate is on an upward trend. It is typically delayed behind the case rate, so we can't be certain that this will be as bad as it gets. It's still very possible for this wave to be more deadly than prior waves, even though the Case:Death rate is lower. Instead of showing 2 & 3 separately, perhaps the combined chart [1] is a better visualization. [1]: https://ourworldindata.org/explorers/coronavirus-data-explorer?uniformYAxis=0&Metric=Cases+and+deaths&Interval=7-day+rolling+average&Relative+to+Population=true&Align+outbreaks=false&country=~DNK https://ourworldindata.org/explorers/coronavirus-data-explor...
- deleted 5y ago[deleted]
- chki 5y agoEven if this was true (which it isn't) the main difference is that you have only minor "lockdown"-measures in Denmark right now which is very different compared to 2020. Vaccines push down the R-Value significantly so you can keep everything open while still having a manageable pandemic.
- randomsearch 5y agoFairly certain you mean “a higher death toll” and not “fatality rate”, which is in itself absolutely meaningless and typical of the antivax nonsense.