5 ms·

Please elaborate

epgui 5y ago
This is just introductory-level microbiology and immunology and I don’t have time to give the subject the treatment it deserves. First, as a practical matter, small molecules like antibiotics are really difficult to develop, the repertoire is limited, and toxicity is often a big problem. The possible repertoire of antibodies against a given antigen is astronomical. In the case of antibiotic resistance, you’re dealing with an active colony of bacteria continually reproducing within one host. In vaccine immunity, reproduction is nil or extremely limited within the host (simplifying white lie), and it is mostly at the host-population level that immune evasion evolves over time, so the population dynamics are totally different. Edit: I recommend Lange’s Medical Microbiology and Janeway’s Immunobiology for those who are interested enough in learning more.
- defaultprimate 5y ago
  >In vaccine immunity, reproduction is nil or extremely limited within the host Not with these vaccines. It's VAED
  - epgui 5y ago
    VAED is not specific to SARS-CoV-2 vaccines, and is the exception rather than the norm. In fact, VAED typically occurs more often in inactivated vaccines, while in comparison, newer mRNA vaccines offer a promising way to reduce the likelihood of VAED. To the best of my knowledge, though it cannot be ruled out as a possibility, there are no confirmed reports of VAED in humans infected with SARS-CoV-2. You're really splitting hairs and assigning excessive importance on minor details.
    - defaultprimate 5y ago
      VAED has occurred repeatedly in mRNA vaccine trials, as well as attempts to develop a coronavirus vaccine because the vaccines provide incomplete protection, in much the same way the current COVID vaccines. It's a primary factor in why they have not made it to market for so long. https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s40259-021-00495-6 https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s40259-021-00495-6 https://mvec.mcri.edu.au/references/vaccine-associated-enhanced-disease-vaed/ https://mvec.mcri.edu.au/references/vaccine-associated-enhan... https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7901381/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7901381/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/34384810/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/34384810/ https://www.chop.edu/centers-programs/vaccine-education-center/vaccine-safety/antibody-dependent-enhancement-and-vaccines https://www.chop.edu/centers-programs/vaccine-education-cent...
      - epgui 5y ago
        No, lol. I would strongly suggest you stop talking about things you know nothing about. - The first 3 links have nothing to do with RNA vaccines - The fourth link says "the ability of SARS-CoV-2 antibodies to mediate infection enhancement in vivo has never been formally demonstrated", and "the results obtained so far have been rather reassuring", which is in agreement with what I said and in direct contradiction with your point. - The fifth link doesn't suggest in any way that VAED is a concern with mRNA vaccines. In fact it says: "Any vaccine that has been found to cause ADE has stopped being used or, more recently as described below for dengue vaccine, been recommended only for those who will not be affected by ADE. Evidence of ADE has not emerged for COVID-19 vaccines even though concerns have been raised."
        defaultprimate 5y ago
        Cool, check back in with me in 9 months

Please elaborate

This is just introductory-level microbiology and immunology and I don’t have time to give the subject the treatment it deserves. First, as a practical matter, small molecules like antibiotics are really difficult to develop, the repertoire is limited, and toxicity is often a big problem. The possible repertoire of antibodies against a given antigen is astronomical. In the case of antibiotic resistance, you’re dealing with an active colony of bacteria continually reproducing within one host. In vaccine immunity, reproduction is nil or extremely limited within the host (simplifying white lie), and it is mostly at the host-population level that immune evasion evolves over time, so the population dynamics are totally different. Edit: I recommend Lange’s Medical Microbiology and Janeway’s Immunobiology for those who are interested enough in learning more.

defaultprimate 5y ago
>In vaccine immunity, reproduction is nil or extremely limited within the host Not with these vaccines. It's VAED
- epgui 5y ago
  VAED is not specific to SARS-CoV-2 vaccines, and is the exception rather than the norm. In fact, VAED typically occurs more often in inactivated vaccines, while in comparison, newer mRNA vaccines offer a promising way to reduce the likelihood of VAED. To the best of my knowledge, though it cannot be ruled out as a possibility, there are no confirmed reports of VAED in humans infected with SARS-CoV-2. You're really splitting hairs and assigning excessive importance on minor details.
  - defaultprimate 5y ago
    VAED has occurred repeatedly in mRNA vaccine trials, as well as attempts to develop a coronavirus vaccine because the vaccines provide incomplete protection, in much the same way the current COVID vaccines. It's a primary factor in why they have not made it to market for so long. https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s40259-021-00495-6 https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s40259-021-00495-6 https://mvec.mcri.edu.au/references/vaccine-associated-enhanced-disease-vaed/ https://mvec.mcri.edu.au/references/vaccine-associated-enhan... https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7901381/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7901381/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/34384810/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/34384810/ https://www.chop.edu/centers-programs/vaccine-education-center/vaccine-safety/antibody-dependent-enhancement-and-vaccines https://www.chop.edu/centers-programs/vaccine-education-cent...
    - epgui 5y ago
      No, lol. I would strongly suggest you stop talking about things you know nothing about. - The first 3 links have nothing to do with RNA vaccines - The fourth link says "the ability of SARS-CoV-2 antibodies to mediate infection enhancement in vivo has never been formally demonstrated", and "the results obtained so far have been rather reassuring", which is in agreement with what I said and in direct contradiction with your point. - The fifth link doesn't suggest in any way that VAED is a concern with mRNA vaccines. In fact it says: "Any vaccine that has been found to cause ADE has stopped being used or, more recently as described below for dengue vaccine, been recommended only for those who will not be affected by ADE. Evidence of ADE has not emerged for COVID-19 vaccines even though concerns have been raised."
      - defaultprimate 5y ago
        Cool, check back in with me in 9 months