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I think there’s a nuance here in the sense that progress happens both inside the established system and outside it - grassroots campaigns, protests, local initi

I think there’s a nuance here in the sense that progress happens both inside the established system and outside it - grassroots campaigns, protests, local initiatives, etc. I think the key issue is that it seems like so many smart people are looking to solve things from the outside rather than involve themselves with the current system, and we need to move that pendulum back quite a bit.

delusional 5y ago
I'd argue that all the things you are listing are also on the inside of the system. There's certainly an element of rebellion to protests for example, but it's also a consolation price. Elon Musk doesn't have to protest, neither does Jeff Bozos. They just call up their preferred politician and the system dances for them. Protests are an opium fed to the disenfranchised masses to keep them from fundamentally changing the system. It's the last pressure valve. Kept just out of reach so that people won't use it, but highlighted to make sure that you aren't allowed to change the system without first doing it. I think the system is whack, and that's the reason people don't want to fight it. They've given up.
- mcguire 5y ago
  But grassroots campaigns and protests do result in change. Not quickly enough for many people, but if your alternative is burning everything down....
  - delusional 5y ago
    Grassroots campaigns and protests let you change the small stuff around the edges. The system provides you with just enough knobs to play with to keep you oblivious to all the ones you can't.
    - kelseyfrog 5y ago
      Construct an self-reinforcing reality aimed at dismantling the current enabling structures. That's exactly as hard or as easy as it sounds.
  - hellbannedguy 5y ago
    Nonviolent protests don't seem to get much change. People get angry over years of absolute no change. It seems like there's a happy medium, as long as no one is killed. (The media usually sensationalizes the protest too. Hell---CVS planned on closing 200 California stores years ago. How do I know? I just know. I heard a spokesman for CVS claim that theft was the reason. When asked about which exact stores were hit hard--she didn't have an answer. When there's a violent protest, and the disenfranchised guys break a window and steal. The tv stations play the same isolated incident over, and over again.)
  - hoseja 5y ago
    Occupy had a chance to maybe actually change something. Then one night, all the significant leaders were disappeared and nobody ever heard about it again, really.
Zoo3y 5y ago
and perhaps more frustrating to smart people looking to do good realize they are just one person. Huge, structural changes to society involve everyone.
- kelseyfrog 5y ago
  This feeling of frustration is familiar. What helped me was shifting the way I approached the problem. Rather than tasking myself with manipulating social structures directly, I've found joy in teaching others to recognize the structures, recognize the processes by which their reality is maintained, and formulate tools to expose their weaknesses and dismantle them. Ideas spread like seeds in the wind. Our collective mental soil is so ready to accept them.
  - s7r 5y ago
    Really appreciate this sub-thread, including @Zoo3y and @teucris' comments. I share a similar perspective. In the case of this article, I feel like a lot of the behaviors come back to rent-seeking — here's a perspective that might resonate with you: https://rebrand.ly/end-of-rent https://rebrand.ly/end-of-rent If this interests, send me a note and let's connect/introduce!
kiliantics 5y ago
This is a strategy commonly known as "Dual Power" among the left, as named by Lenin. The far left have obviously thought a lot about how to change social systems and, if you are interested in doing so, there is a lot of good theory in their literature as some have thought very deeply about it.
- noworriesnate 5y ago
  Interesting, that reminds me of psychohistory from the Federation series by Isaac Asimov. Where would I find that literature?
  - kiliantics 5y ago
    There is so much out there that I really think it's best to find what works well for you, like something written in a style you could get into. Some punk anarchist type stuff might read cool and edgy or sound whiney to you, whereas reading original Lenin or Bakunin might sound dry or maybe you like the old timey aesthetic. Personally, I'd recommend Murray Bookchin's ideas of Social Ecology. They came out of an attempt to apply a more scientific approach to the problem of how to change society as a whole, including taking into account our lived and natural environment and the looming natural catastrophes. Bookchin tries to adopt the "best" parts of all the leftist ideologies and combine them into a framework for an ideology that can adapt with the times and with new understandings as they arise from each attempt at change.

delusional 5y ago

I'd argue that all the things you are listing are also on the inside of the system. There's certainly an element of rebellion to protests for example, but it's also a consolation price. Elon Musk doesn't have to protest, neither does Jeff Bozos. They just call up their preferred politician and the system dances for them. Protests are an opium fed to the disenfranchised masses to keep them from fundamentally changing the system. It's the last pressure valve. Kept just out of reach so that people won't use it, but highlighted to make sure that you aren't allowed to change the system without first doing it. I think the system is whack, and that's the reason people don't want to fight it. They've given up.

mcguire 5y ago
But grassroots campaigns and protests do result in change. Not quickly enough for many people, but if your alternative is burning everything down....
- delusional 5y ago
  Grassroots campaigns and protests let you change the small stuff around the edges. The system provides you with just enough knobs to play with to keep you oblivious to all the ones you can't.
  - kelseyfrog 5y ago
    Construct an self-reinforcing reality aimed at dismantling the current enabling structures. That's exactly as hard or as easy as it sounds.
- hellbannedguy 5y ago
  Nonviolent protests don't seem to get much change. People get angry over years of absolute no change. It seems like there's a happy medium, as long as no one is killed. (The media usually sensationalizes the protest too. Hell---CVS planned on closing 200 California stores years ago. How do I know? I just know. I heard a spokesman for CVS claim that theft was the reason. When asked about which exact stores were hit hard--she didn't have an answer. When there's a violent protest, and the disenfranchised guys break a window and steal. The tv stations play the same isolated incident over, and over again.)
- hoseja 5y ago
  Occupy had a chance to maybe actually change something. Then one night, all the significant leaders were disappeared and nobody ever heard about it again, really.

Zoo3y 5y ago

and perhaps more frustrating to smart people looking to do good realize they are just one person. Huge, structural changes to society involve everyone.

kelseyfrog 5y ago
This feeling of frustration is familiar. What helped me was shifting the way I approached the problem. Rather than tasking myself with manipulating social structures directly, I've found joy in teaching others to recognize the structures, recognize the processes by which their reality is maintained, and formulate tools to expose their weaknesses and dismantle them. Ideas spread like seeds in the wind. Our collective mental soil is so ready to accept them.
- s7r 5y ago
  Really appreciate this sub-thread, including @Zoo3y and @teucris' comments. I share a similar perspective. In the case of this article, I feel like a lot of the behaviors come back to rent-seeking — here's a perspective that might resonate with you: https://rebrand.ly/end-of-rent https://rebrand.ly/end-of-rent If this interests, send me a note and let's connect/introduce!

kiliantics 5y ago

This is a strategy commonly known as "Dual Power" among the left, as named by Lenin. The far left have obviously thought a lot about how to change social systems and, if you are interested in doing so, there is a lot of good theory in their literature as some have thought very deeply about it.

noworriesnate 5y ago
Interesting, that reminds me of psychohistory from the Federation series by Isaac Asimov. Where would I find that literature?
- kiliantics 5y ago
  There is so much out there that I really think it's best to find what works well for you, like something written in a style you could get into. Some punk anarchist type stuff might read cool and edgy or sound whiney to you, whereas reading original Lenin or Bakunin might sound dry or maybe you like the old timey aesthetic. Personally, I'd recommend Murray Bookchin's ideas of Social Ecology. They came out of an attempt to apply a more scientific approach to the problem of how to change society as a whole, including taking into account our lived and natural environment and the looming natural catastrophes. Bookchin tries to adopt the "best" parts of all the leftist ideologies and combine them into a framework for an ideology that can adapt with the times and with new understandings as they arise from each attempt at change.